8th Ed. Saurus Hordes?

[asrodrig]

Has anyone tried this yet? Is it worth trying?

 

[Ilnar3]

Saurus are right up there as one of the most expensive troops you want to horde,
However, they are pretty hard,
Against lesser troops, you know a unit of 30 is going to win combat,
The enemy might hold steadfast, but you will chase them down eventually,
Against better troops, I.e. Chaos warriors, they are soooooo much cheaper for the same amount of bodies, and with only a little magical assistance they will hold, they really don't need much, a T boost, -1 to hit, and the odds start looking good

All in all, I do like to field one along with my skrox units. Though I do tend to have it as a 7x4 block against units that are only 5 or so wide, since I don't need the extra bodies in the front rank,
The best thing about a unit of 30 is that even after it's first combat, it should still be combat effective, even 15/20 can reform 5 wide and 3/4 deep,
Through in a cheap scar vet with the glittering scale and a GW and you have a nice block

 

[vapor]

Has anyone tried this yet? Is it worth trying?

Actual horde (10 wide) wouldn't be worth it, 250mm frontage means that a lot of your guys on the edges wouldn't be getting their attacks in, so you'd pay the points for them to stand there and not break steadfast.

 

[rustybrazenfire]

I tried a Horde of 50 with spears this past Friday. Yeah, it was my entire Core choice...

Anyway, it worked surprisingly well vs. Skaven slave hordes. I can tell you right now, the big downside is (like vapor said) the 25mm base making it impossible to get your full rank in base contact. It WAS kinda nice rolling around 50 attacks in the 2nd round of combat, but in the end you're probably better off with at most an 8 wide formation. Don't even consider it if you aren't facing horde armies though.

 

[asrodrig]

Has anyone tried this yet? Is it worth trying?

Actual horde (10 wide) wouldn't be worth it, 250mm frontage means that a lot of your guys on the edges wouldn't be getting their attacks in, so you'd pay the points for them to stand there and not break steadfast.

That's what I was thinking of. That unit will not only we unwieldy because of it's size, since it'll be harder to get in around terrain and stuff. Maybe I'll stick with 5x5 Spears...

 

[Ilnar3]

If your facing an Orc boy horde 10 wide, deploy 10 wide,
If your facing skaven 5 wide, then deploy 6 wide,
Don't lock yourself into one formation because it works most of the time,
The ability to redeploy at a moments notice is one of the best things about 8th
As a general rule of thumb, match what your enemy is doing, then add 2

 

[AunKnorrie]

At the risk of parroting Ilnar, I must say that a Saurus horde sounds contra-intuitive to me.

You pay through the nose for a reasonable combattant. These are troops I wish to drploy in two or three hard-hitting cohorts, not one unwieldy legion.

Now Skroxs, those I would like to run as hordes.

 

[strewart]

Has anyone tried this yet? Is it worth trying?

Actual horde (10 wide) wouldn't be worth it, 250mm frontage means that a lot of your guys on the edges wouldn't be getting their attacks in, so you'd pay the points for them to stand there and not break steadfast.

Depends on what you are fighting. Keep in mind any unit in horde formation on 20mm bases is 200mm wide, so corner to corner you can still get everyone in BTB. And as mentioned, fi they aren't then you can reform to give yourself more ranks.

 

[vapor]

Has anyone tried this yet? Is it worth trying?

Actual horde (10 wide) wouldn't be worth it, 250mm frontage means that a lot of your guys on the edges wouldn't be getting their attacks in, so you'd pay the points for them to stand there and not break steadfast.

Depends on what you are fighting. Keep in mind any unit in horde formation on 20mm bases is 200mm wide, so corner to corner you can still get everyone in BTB. And as mentioned, fi they aren't then you can reform to give yourself more ranks.

Having seen and fought against them a few times I haven't been impressed by hordes, at least in the 10 wide formation. I think that outside of a few select units (marauders, goblins, skaven) it's fad that will die off in the near future, at least at a competitive level. Steadfast is the name of the game this addition, and saurus are going to work best at 5-6 wide with as many ranks as you can afford.

 

[AunKnorrie]

Steadfast is the name of the game this addition, and saurus are going to work best at 5-6 wide with as many ranks as you can afford.

This is a very interesting point to me. I should confess first however that I am very much taken by "the Roman look" of my Saurii and I like the picture of a dense cohort besting a wide phalanxtype horde. This may colour the way I look at the arguments here, but still:

Suarii are not cheap and they are definitely reasonable fighters. They need depth and resilliance rather than offering a lot of bodies in the first round of combat. AFter all, their low inititative means most opponents will strike first, so giving out a wide frontage is really offering more free kills to your opponent.

I definately prefer two blocks of 5X4 over one block of 10x4, even if the latter saves you a second command group.

 

[Ilnar3]

Suarii are not cheap and they are definitely reasonable fighters. They need depth and resilliance rather than offering a lot of bodies in the first round of combat. AFter all, their low inititative means most opponents will strike first, so giving out a wide frontage is really offering more free kills to your opponent.
.

If you have a unit of saurus 5 wide and let's say 4deep,
I have a frontage of 7 and 3 deep,
I get 21 attacks with hw/shield
You get 15 with hw shield

I win combat,
You only have 2 ranks at the end,
And you kill let's say 3 Anna bit

I have 2 ranks at the end and Kill 5 or so,
I win by1 or 2
Exactly the same points cost,

Exactly the same unit

 

[vapor]

Suarii are not cheap and they are definitely reasonable fighters. They need depth and resilliance rather than offering a lot of bodies in the first round of combat. AFter all, their low inititative means most opponents will strike first, so giving out a wide frontage is really offering more free kills to your opponent.
.

If you have a unit of saurus 5 wide and let's say 4deep,
I have a frontage of 7 and 3 deep,
I get 21 attacks with hw/shield
You get 15 with hw shield

I win combat,
You only have 2 ranks at the end,
And you kill let's say 3 Anna bit

I have 2 ranks at the end and Kill 5 or so,
I win by1 or 2
Exactly the same points cost,

Exactly the same unit

Your math is a bit off; even if you kill 5 the 5x4 would still have 3 ranks, and as long as the 5x4 kills one you only have 2 ranks, thus the 5x4 would keep steadfast. All it takes is one round going the 5x4's way and you're taking a break test without steadfast.

When you run 5x4 you'd want spears to maximize damage output. The parry save just isn't worth it IMO, especially if you're running a narrower frontage. Also, I've been trying out blocks of 30 in a 6x5 formation with spears-- it's best of both worlds.

 

[Ilnar3]

See I checked after you said that, and no, if you had a unit 5x4 and you lose 5 you have 5 x3 or two complete ranks
If I have 7x3 and lose 2 I still have 2 complete ranks, since I only need 5 models to have a rank.

 

[AunKnorrie]

Nice arguments gentlemen and perhaps we could take it a bit further.

At the moment, the math defeats me, but I still feel intuitively that you shouldn't play into the hordes-player by presenting a wide frontage.

 

[Ilnar3]

Ok, well, our troops are better than his troops yes?
So why give him the benefit of extra attacks,
Since saurus only have 2 attacks in the front rank, it makes sence to maximize these front rank attacks,
The only way to maximize attacks as a saurus is to have a wider frontage than the enemy,
Hence the horde,
If I have 20 saurus, and I deploy 5x4 I get 15 attacks, if I pay extra I can have 20
If I have 20 saurus, and I deploy 7x3 I get 21 attacks, if i pay extra i can have 28
All of whom can attack against a unit ranked up 5 wide
If there is an enemy across from me that is deployed wider than I am I am essentially giving them free attacks,
Saurus don't need to be steadfast except against very scary opponents,

What I'm trying to get across here, is that you can take any formation you want, at any time,
Far to many people just stick to what ever size they made the movement tray to be,
You should always, always at least match the width your enemy brings against you, unless you are really sure you are going to lose,
In which case 5xmany ensures you will lose, but won't run away,

 

[vapor]

See I checked after you said that, and no, if you had a unit 5x4 and you lose 5 you have 5 x3 or two complete ranks
If I have 7x3 and lose 2 I still have 2 complete ranks, since I only need 5 models to have a rank.

You are absolutely right, I don't know why i had it in my head that incomplete full ranks in wider formations didn't count.

Let's actually do the math this time. I'm going to take the 11 extra points the 7x3 has and add 9 more to give the 5x4 spears (deep ranks should ALWAYS take spears). so the difference in points is 231 for 7x3 and 240 for 5x4 with spears.

7x3 does 21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 5.25 wound, 1.5 are saved, 3.75 dead.

5x4 does 20 attacks, 10 hit, 5 wound, 1.5 are saved, .5 are parried, 3 dead.

You did .75 more wounds, but I still have 3 ranks to your 2, winning the combat and breaking your steadfast.


In my opinion, with saurus it's not so much about keeping steadfast (our leadership is really good anyway) as it is about breaking theirs-- you are going to win against most other core infantry (and some elite infantry as well). The faster you get rid of their steadfast (by having more ranks than them) and add your combat result to their leadership test the faster they run away and completely die.

That's why I prefer to take 29 with spears, FC and a scarvet in a 6x5 formation-- not only do you pump out a lot of attacks, 5 ranks means you break steadfast faster.

 

[Ilnar3]

I'm afraid you have the parries the wrong way around, the hws saurus get e parry, not your spears.
Ahh my bad, I see what you did there

 

[AunKnorrie]

Hold on, am I missing something.

Any shield gives a parry, wasn't it? I believe the type of weapon had no influence.

(or am I mistaken)

 

[Ilnar3]

7x3 does 21 attacks, 10.5 hit, 5.25 wound, 1.75 are saved, 3.5 dead.

5x4 does 20 attacks, 10 hit, 5 wound, 1.66 are saved, .55 are parried, 2.7 dead

Rounding errors ftw
I have practically another wound, you have a rank,
Touché?

 

[Ilnar3]

Hold on, am I missing something.

Any shield gives a parry, wasn't it? I believe the type of weapon had no influence.

(or am I mistaken)

Shields grant you +1 to your save,

Having a hand weapon as well gives you a 6+ ward save