7th Ed. Sallies or Razors?

[jay.sar87]

Template vs Hordes. Just awesome.

And just like Ralph Wiggum, "the leprechaun told me to BURN things!"

 

[Revered_Guardian]

Thats a very convincing last post :} please people take a look at my list in the army list section and harp on it

 

[Krox-Power]

Honestly, I would say that for the armies you are facing, I'd go with salamanders. However, against armies like ogres, they are nearly worthless, as you will probably only get 1-2 4+ hits, and no auto hits. The salamanders are great for large units, and the razordons are more for the smaller, tougher units.

 

[lupercal]

yeah razors are good for stuff with high toughness and no armour (giants/ogres), but other than that i like the sallies for their overall better performance they are a much better unit imho, but i can see the uses for razors it is just a more limited role

 

[Celticfire]

My friend put it very nicly. you cant charge razordons. put them on a flank and waatch any flanker die.the extra die per razordon for a stand and shoot reaction is wonderful, especialy against a failed charge. they definalty lend them selves to a more defensive play style and the salamanders to a more offensive (the ability to march and shoot is wonderful).

 

[Caneghem]

My friend put it very nicly. you cant charge razordons. put them on a flank and waatch any flanker die.the extra die per razordon for a stand and shoot reaction is wonderful, especialy against a failed charge. they definalty lend them selves to a more defensive play style and the salamanders to a more offensive (the ability to march and shoot is wonderful).

Salamanders are great on offense, but they cannot march and shoot. It's not a breath weapon, it just uses the flame template.

 

[Celticfire]

My friend put it very nicly. you cant charge razordons. put them on a flank and waatch any flanker die.the extra die per razordon for a stand and shoot reaction is wonderful, especialy against a failed charge. they definalty lend them selves to a more defensive play style and the salamanders to a more offensive (the ability to march and shoot is wonderful).

Salamanders are great on offense, but they cannot march and shoot. It's not a breath weapon, it just uses the flame template.

So i cant read my book. time to feel like an idiot again. just to make sure, it is only that they hit like a breath weapon, right?

 

[Revered_Guardian]

correct, and as mentioned they can't march and shoot but who cares!

Template+auto-panic+horde=OWNED

 

[Celticfire]

correct, and as mentioned they can't march and shoot but who cares!

Template+auto-panic+horde=OWNED

i play against demons, a WoC player who puts slannesh on everything, ogres, and bretonia. though aparenty one of my friends is going to play empire soon and i plan to try out a unit of sallies

 

[Revered_Guardian]

Sallies also rip nights to shreds.... better if u fire at their flanks though

 

[Tiass8]

Sallies also rip nights to shreds.... better if u fire at their flanks though

Is it just me who's sick and tired of that phone text messaging talk.

WFB forums are full of shortened words already, I really don't need that writing of a ten year old, but maybe thats just me.

Anyways, back on subject, It was mentioned that flankers will die to razordons, I would call that rather optimistic in many occasions, first of all, I'd wait until the stand-and-shoot gets FAQ'ed, because until GW says otherwise a razordon won't fire at all, if it misfires on just one of its artilleri die.

This means that on an average stand and shoot, you will only get a normal round of shooting, as well as eating some of your skinks. Many fast flanking units of the more resilient armies, daemons, vampires, brettonians and to some extend anvilling dwarves will laugh at razordon shooting, and beat them up in combat.

Mathias

 

[Caneghem]

Is it just me who's sick and tired of that phone text messaging talk.

Are you aware that was a question and not a statement? I certainly understand where you are coming from, and I often wince seeing some of the more atrocious examples of new-speak. Each one reminds me a little bit of the death of the age of reason, and the sweeping disdain many now hold for intellectual discourse (anybody seen Idiocracy?) However, I think it might be a little overly optimistic to expect full sentences every time. There are certain posters I just do not attempt to read at all, because they appear to be writing in a different language. I think Bugman's Brewery has some regulations on how clearly posts must be written, but that will be up to the site admin. I guess being a worldwide hobby, there is a certain population who do not speak english natively, so some leeway can be given when there is a clear effort being made. But you can usually tell the difference between when it is just someone using new-speak and someone learning English as a second language.

Anyways, back on subject, It was mentioned that flankers will die to razordons, I would call that rather optimistic in many occasions, first of all, I'd wait until the stand-and-shoot gets FAQ'ed, because until GW says otherwise a razordon won't fire at all, if it misfires on just one of its artilleri die.

This means that on an average stand and shoot, you will only get a normal round of shooting, as well as eating some of your skinks. Many fast flanking units of the more resilient armies, daemons, vampires, brettonians and to some extend anvilling dwarves will laugh at razordon shooting, and beat them up in combat.

Mathias

Three razordons on average will misfire one out of every 6 rolls. So for normal shooting, one of them will misfire and eat skinks every other volley. This leaves 5 uninterrupted volleys putting out an average of 5 shots each for 25 total. Stand and shoot, you roll 6 dice so on average you will get one razordon misfire and two fire an average of 10 shots apiece for 20. If you evaluate them on just average rolls, it is actually worse on stand and shoot. In all fairness though, enemies must consider what the shots CAN do rather than what they will usually do.

That's where the damage issue comes in... str 4 plain just won't get through certain enemies. Take a unit of 1+ or 2+ armor knights and charge them at 3 razordons (a 225 point unit), and the razors don't stand a chance. 10 str 4 hits is what happens on average, and that isn't enough to deter the knights. Also the razordons are expensive enough to be worth going after.

 

[Celticfire]

At what point is a 2+ armor save knight going to be placed on the flanks? i have played most of the elietest armies, and i normally see: Maruder horsemen, Mounted Yeomen, Mounted glade guard, mounted demonettes, and pistollers (spelling?). i do not presume to know everything about army set up, but this has been my expeience.razordons are in fact able to handle these, the shand and shoot, even with a misfire, then the stat line of an ogre, usualt is resoved in my favor; size, 2-3 kills, plus fear usually results in an auto break.

 

[Caneghem]

At what point is a 2+ armor save knight going to be placed on the flanks? i have played most of the elietest armies, and i normally see: Maruder horsemen, Mounted Yeomen, Mounted glade guard, mounted demonettes, and pistollers (spelling?). i do not presume to know everything about army set up, but this has been my expeience.razordons are in fact able to handle these, the shand and shoot, even with a misfire, then the stat line of an ogre, usualt is resoved in my favor; size, 2-3 kills, plus fear usually results in an auto break.

I'm not saying those particular kinds of flank threats exist, it's just that many times someone will run heavy knights into flanking position so they can roll up your army. It's a fairly conventional tactic, and if I had heavy knights I'd certainly send them to gobble up a fairly vulnerable 225 point shooting unit. Then the rest of my lightly armored stuff could have fun.

Terradons just do the job so much better, and skinks with their poison shots are just as good at taking down lightly armored things.

 

[Tiass8]

The problem with the razordon is the lack of charge options, because many units will charge and kill them, negating a normal flee reaction.

Anyways it says in the razordon shooting section, that if a misfire is rolled, INSTEAD of shooting, the razordon eats d3 skinks, which, until the FAQ clears it up, means that a razordon 1/3 times when making a stand and shoot, will do nothing but eat skinks.
I normally see razordon packs in units of 2, which means that there is a 2/3 chance of one of them misfiring, which means they usually do, and charging a 150-160 point unit that gives 5 S4 hits in average, or even less against skirmishers or models in cover, plus take down their own unit strength by d3.

My old army was vampires, bats of a decent size will grind those razordons at twice their cost easily.
flesh hounds would ofcourse also, not that it differs from flesh hounds against most other units.
Dark elves though could be annoyed, unless they brought a hydra ofcourse.

When I put my army together, those are the 3 armies that I build my army to face in battle, because those are the armies you see at the top tables.

mathias

 

[strewart]

At what point is a 2+ armor save knight going to be placed on the flanks? i have played most of the elietest armies, and i normally see: Maruder horsemen, Mounted Yeomen, Mounted glade guard, mounted demonettes, and pistollers (spelling?). i do not presume to know everything about army set up, but this has been my expeience.razordons are in fact able to handle these, the shand and shoot, even with a misfire, then the stat line of an ogre, usualt is resoved in my favor; size, 2-3 kills, plus fear usually results in an auto break.

In the last HE book when Dragon Princes had a charge range of 18", I always put them on the flank since they could clean up whatever enemy flankers where there then hit the flanks of the main battle line or even the rear very quickly and add huge support. Now, with only (lol) a 16" charge my unit is mainly for head on charges, but I occasionally still put them out on the flank. I wouldn't if there were razordons there though, but it just means I would deploy them on the other side from the razors or in the middle, they do just as well there.

 

[slannFrogy]

salamander, love the living flamethrower apart from dragons

 

[Skarl]

I prefer salamanders as compared to razordons anything fully coverd by the template is hit and anything partial is a 4+.
While with razordon you have to rolll to see how many you shoot, then roll to see how many hit, then roll to see if any wound, THEN roll to see if they pass their armour save and to me that seems too many chances to be ineffective. If razordons had a better range or maybe poison shots then i would take some.

 

[drjoe2001]

ok, everyone seems to say sallies against Wood Elves. Maybe i am missing something or just still a rookie but i've used them twice and nothing to write home about. Flamming attack seems worthless b/c the only flamable unit i play aginst is a treeman. Seems to me the dryads would be flammable but aren't, go figure. The entire game i killed maybe 12 units with the sallies. Several glade gaurd, passed panic test easily with LD8. Immune to psyc on both wardancers and dryads. My unit of 3 sallies did own the wardancers that charged them and then chased them down. But that was it. Not sure about taking them again. 240 points could give me another unit of 6 Cold Ones (which turn into pincushions for waywatchers and arrows of doom!). Plus i keep getting terribly flanked by his fsat cav and war riders. Darn elves, stand and fight!

 

[drjoe2001]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. The -3 armour save seems cool and could be effective against say dwarves or warriors of chaos. But what about ward saves? Drayds ward save really dwindled the wounds.

off topic... can a skink priest ride a terradon? Thanks