AoS Salamander vs Razordon

[Tlac'Natai the Observer]

Hello all! The topic has been touched on very lightly, and I think these two units deserve some discussion.

I myself have been using razordons which put out a good average of 1-4 wounds per model, which I'm happy with. I don't have any salamanders so I'm wondering how the two stack up against each other.

So far, I've been fielding them in between my main force and my flanking skinks so that I can get a few defensive reflex shots off; am I using them correctly!?!?

I really like the -2 rend on the salamander but it scares me that sometimes the 1 attack won't get that far, hence why I like the multiple shots of the razordon. I can't stand having a unit attack and do nothing at all for a whole turn.

For all intents and purposes let's just assume they are near their handlers, so sallies get 12" range and razordons get to reroll 1s to hit.

I'm not asking which one is better, just the pros and cons of each.

 

[Freddy25]

To me,

Razordons = DEFENSE
- lots of attacks, so they rarely can't do some damage in the shooting phase
- perfect defensive choice (you can hide a priest among 2 or 3 razors)
- I think handlers are not essential to make good use of the razors, so if you are playing with a Wounds limit it may be handy
- better Save (4+) than salamanders (5+)
- worse than salamanders in melee (they hit worse and don't have rend)

Salamanders = OFFENSE
- Better in combat, but with a little less Save
- Extremely dangerous, but a bit risky
- I believe they NEED a handler and/or a Starseer to be really useful

Razordons are more reliable, but Salamander are sooooo much fun!

 

[Tlac'Natai the Observer]

That's interesting you think razordons don't need the handlers, I would have thought that about salamanders since they ONLY get more range. But that makes me feel better about summoning them in, it's such a pain that we have to summon in handlers separately, where dwarves can field cannons as one warscroll!

I completely glossed over all the melee stats when comparing these two and I'm still on the fence, but their stats really solidify the purposes that you highlighted.

 

[Killer Angel]

my playing experience.

With sallies you need the handlers for range, with razordons you'll throw a lot of dices, so you need handlers to reroll ones.
However, you only need one handler to have the bonus, so in both cases it's not hard to field one of them, even with wounds limit.
handlers' use: tie

Razordons and Sallies are a threat that the enemy must face (and kill). Razordons are simply more durable for their better save.
Survivability: razordons win.

Sallies hurt (d6 dam with rend -2, plus "it burns!", is huge); with 3 of them, probably you'll fail one of your 3 Attacks... 2 hits, and one that burns: 8-9 wounds. 2 saves, and a lucky save will reduce the damage by a lot.
3 Razordons will roll 6d6 hits, so probably 21 Attacks with reroll... probably 15 hits, and 8 wounds. 8 saves, but you'll have at most a rend -1.
shooting phase: i'd say is similar: sallies can hurt more, razordons are more reliable.

CC damage output: this goes to sallies.

Special abilities: istinctive defense is simply Amazing. this goes to Razordons.

in the end, Salamanders are really nice, but Razordons are slightly better. (IMO)

 

[El Caimán]

If you use salamanders, stick with 2/3 of them

 

[Bainbow]

my playing experience.

With sallies you need the handlers for range, with razordons you'll throw a lot of dices, so you need handlers to reroll ones.
However, you only need one handler to have the bonus, so in both cases it's not hard to field one of them, even with wounds limit.
handlers' use: tie

Razordons and Sallies are a threat that the enemy must face (and kill). Razordons are simply more durable for their better save.
Survivability: razordons win.

Sallies hurt (d6 dam with rend -2, plus "it burns!", is huge); with 3 of them, probably you'll fail one of your 3 Attacks... 2 hits, and one that burns: 8-9 wounds. 2 saves, and a lucky save will reduce the damage by a lot.
3 Razordons will roll 6d6 hits, so probably 21 Attacks with reroll... probably 15 hits, and 8 wounds. 8 saves, but you'll have at most a rend -1.
shooting phase: i'd say is similar: sallies can hurt more, razordons are more reliable.

CC damage output: this goes to sallies.

Special abilities: istinctive defense is simply Amazing. this goes to Razordons.

in the end, Salamanders are really nice, but Razordons are slightly better. (IMO)

I prefer Salamanders, actually. Sure Razordons have more durability, but that's not an issue when you can just instantly summon the Sallies back to life when things go south for them. On top of which, the Sallies have both better crowd control, and better assassination capabilities due to their great rend and damage that will tear heroes to shreds. In addition, our mass reroll capabilities allow us to negate the unreliability you specified that Sallies have. So I'd go Sallies all the way.

 

[Killer Angel]

Well, my experience with sallies wasn't great, BUT must be said that i used them poorly (and I know it).
1 or 2 sallies, without working to increase their chances, is indeed a bad way to make them shine.

For example, the next time, I'll field them in a group of 3-4... with the Great Drake constellation and maybe the savage Thunderquake Starhost; add to the mix a Starseer as support, and the chances to inflict huge damage will be very high.

Plus, there will be also the surprise factor: given my playstyle, now my usual opponents fear the razordons, but think that sallies are weak.

 

[Bainbow]

Well, my experience with sallies wasn't great, BUT must be said that i used them poorly (and I know it).
1 or 2 sallies, without working to increase their chances, is indeed a bad way to make them shine.

For example, the next time, I'll field them in a group of 3-4... with the Great Drake constellation and maybe the savage Thunderquake Starhost; add to the mix a Starseer as support, and the chances to inflict huge damage will be very high.

Plus, there will be also the surprise factor: given my playstyle, now my usual opponents fear the razordons, but think that sallies are weak.

Funny, my opponents fear my sallies but don't think that much of razordons.

 

[Killer Angel]

Funny, my opponents fear my sallies but don't think that much of razordons.

Interesting...
This requires an explanation about tactic.

I usually employ razordons in this way: i summon them on a piece of terrain, on the flank of my target unit, and proceed with shooting.
The weakened unit now must choose: if it continues to advance toward my army, they'll leave the razordons free to act in the next turn. If they move and charge the razordon, they risk to face another free shooting and the razordons will have a +3 save... that will be +2, if I cast a shield on them. (total cost: 2 spells from the Slann). A very resilient unit, that pops out of nowhere, is immediately dangerous and that makes you think twice about chargin it.

With Sallies, the trick is less efficient. Sure, damage output is excellent, and i get that 3d6 at -2 rend is HUGE, but their shooting range is 8'', i must summon them at 9'' and they cannot move when summoned. To hit the enemy I need increased range, so I must also summon the handlers (2 spells from the Slann). With the same effort of spells, I have a unit that, indeed, can hurt a lot, but they cannot shoot again if charged and, even in a piece of terrain, their save will be at +4. This means that (if used in this way) sallies are a much easier target than razordons, and will give away more victory points, 'cause I would lose also the handler(s). If I want a glass cannon, I already have ripperdactyls...


How do you tactically employ the sallies, to maximize their value? Because really, I would like to make them truly fearful.

 

[Bainbow]

How do you tactically employ the sallies, to maximize their value? Because really, I would like to make them truly fearful.

Sorry for the late reply, I've been very busy this weekend.
I tend to wait for enemy heroes, the biggest ones ideally such as monster riders, then summon some Salamanders and some handlers 9" away from the hero in question so with that bonus range they can shoot the hero, easy to do once an opening appears due to the bonus spell range from my Astriloth. Using some Starseer/Kroak rerolls to help ensure that I'll hit and wound and with a great -2 rend, I usually wind up doing 2d6-3D6 damage to the hero, often lethally so. Bonus points as I've also been firing Comet's Call at all the heroes all game to weaken them before hand.
List of generals killed this way:
-Archaon (8 wound version)
-Nagash
-Like a half dozen unnamed heroes.
As is now, the shop's so afraid of my sallies that they now serve as great distractions. I pop some sallies up to the side and the enemy sends huge amounts of reinforcements after them to kill them before they fire, making good cheap distractions that keep my irreplaceable units safe. And if they ignore the sallies, I just do as above. It's a win-win for me.

 

[Killer Angel]

Sorry for the late reply, I've been very busy this weekend.
I tend to wait for enemy heroes, the biggest ones ideally such as monster riders, then summon some Salamanders and some handlers 9" away from the hero in question so with that bonus range they can shoot the hero, easy to do once an opening appears due to the bonus spell range from my Astriloth. Using some Starseer/Kroak rerolls to help ensure that I'll hit and wound and with a great -2 rend, I usually wind up doing 2d6-3D6 damage to the hero, often lethally so. Bonus points as I've also been firing Comet's Call at all the heroes all game to weaken them before hand.

Don't worry, holidays are busy times for us all.

That said, it's more or less what i was thinking too. The difference is the kind of target: if you go for heroes rather then units, sallies are indeed more effective than razordons, and should easily replace their cost...
I'll try it this week, and I'll let you know.

 

[Bainbow]

Don't worry, holidays are busy times for us all.

That said, it's more or less what i was thinking too. The difference is the kind of target: if you go for heroes rather then units, sallies are indeed more effective than razordons, and should easily replace their cost...
I'll try it this week, and I'll let you know.

From what I can see based on their stats, Razors are wonderful against light infantry such as Night Runners and Bloodreavers, while Sallies are better for heavy infantry like Chaos Warriors and Liberators. This is because Razors can rail of more wounds, but can easily be stopped by good armour. The Sallies meanwhile have a huge Rend and can cause Mortal Wounds with their It Burns ability, giving them more armour penetration.

 

[Voff]

It Burns!: Roll a dice at the end of the shooting phase for each unit that suffered any wounds from a Salamander’s Stream of Fire in that phase. If the result is 4 or higher, the unit suffers D3 mortal wounds as the corrosive liquid eats through armour, flesh and bone.

Does this mean the extra "It Burns!" is 1D3 mortal wounds regardless of how many Salamanders wound with their stream of fire?

 

[Killer Angel]

Does this mean the extra "It Burns!" is 1D3 mortal wounds regardless of how many Salamanders wound with their stream of fire?

Imo it's 1d3 for each salamander.
The ability refers to "a salamander"

 

[Voff]

Imo it's 1d3 for each salamander.
The ability refers to "a salamander"

Nice! The damage potential!

Still not sure, but I think I'll go for the Razordons since I wont have access to rerolls from Kroak/Tetto in my army. Not sure though!

 

[Killer Angel]

Still not sure,

I suggest to open a thread on the subject in the subforum Age of Sigmar - Rules help.
Let me know if you do it, so I'll join the debate.