7th Ed. Salamander Tactica?

[coops409]

Can someone please link me the post for this if it's already been made, and if not, could someone please explain how to effectively use them?

 

[thesecondman]

Re: Salamander Tactica

This is a really good idea.
I reckon we should make on of these, making a Razordon and Salamander tactica will be useful.
I'm all good with throwing my two cents in regarding razordon's, i've got 2 units in my army.
It'll be another opportunity for us all to argue about which is better.
I vote razordons.

 

[coops409]

Re: Salamander Tactica

Yeah, Razordon Tactica would be helpful too. xD

 

[thesecondman]

Re: Salamander Tactica

I would need the rulebook in front of me to start one, but im at work . I might crank it later.

 

[strewart]

Re: Salamander Tactica

Neither have been made yet, what you see in the index is what there is. I update that index within 12 hours of the thread being made and at the moment, the project is very young so there aren't many threads yet.

Thesecondman, you are going to find yourself somewhat outnumbered when it comes to the usefulness of razordons, though I'm sure you won't mind. It will be good to have both opposing views of them in a thread so new readers can see what both camps think and make their own judgement.

Salamanders cause a panic test for every wound they cause, so you want them to be breathing as much as possible and on as many units as possible. They are best used up the flanks to first deal with any support units there then point back toward the centre of the battle.

 

[thesecondman]

Re: Salamander Tactica

Well i'll try to be pre-emptive.
Yeah. I just posted the below post on another forum thread. Feel free to add to the real tactica if/when there is one/you want. Made some changes as well.

Against skirmishers, flyers, large targets tough targets, FAST CAVALRY (especially) and small low armored units, the razordon is superior.
**Why???**
Skirmishers - Are spread out, so flame template hits less. Often low toughness, razors often wound (and indeed kill) on threes. Offsets 5's to hit.
Flyers - Often in units so small that its kinda lame to waste a flame template on them, increased chance of killing them due to increased rolls to wound.
Large targets - potential to do more wounds, higher strength. hits them on 3's
Fast cavalry - melts them. You basically have to misfire or get unlucky to not at least cause a panic test.
Small low armored units - to be fair, its abour even.

Against blocks of infantry and knights (heavy cavalry), the salamander is superior. Pretty much

Make your own decision, thet both have their strengths.
Note that the razordon has a very cool stand and shoot reaction special rule. This can be used to to great effect by deliberately putting the razordon into the path of an on coming charge. Often provides unexpected results, like opponent not charging at all (good tactically) instead of risking a poo-storm of spines. This versatility, together with the fact that fast cavalry are both annoying and (normally) worth a health amount of victory points (5 fast cav will normally equal or go over the cost of a single razordon, and its quite possible to wipe a unit of 5 out in a turn), as well as the fact that fast cav can charge and kill a unit of skink skirmishers with relative ease, lead me to believe razordons are the more reliable to put into your "locked out" tournament lists.

Additionally, salamanders have a little bit of a fruity firing system. Slightly (i realise not a lot) less reliable method of hitting opponent.

Using razordons on their own (units of one) is the best way to field them. Its only 75 points for a deployment. Only 75 points to die when it gets charged. Too annyoing to ignore but not worth many victory points. Still causes fear as well as a unit of 2 or 3. Takes up less space in deployment zone and in your battle line. Less points in rare units, leading to (normally) better scores in tournament composition judgments. This point applies to Salamanders as well, but to sightly less extent due to the targets each will often target (no such thing as throwing too many flame templates at a huge block, but there is such a thing as overkilling that last, super-annoying dark rider before he charges you skink priest on foot ;p).

 

[TheAncientOne]

Re: Salamander Tactica

I guess pschologically, stopping charges... But I'd still prefer sallies...

 

[Barotok]

Re: Salamander Tactica

Can we change the title of this thread to something other than Salamander Tactica? I was expecting an actual tactca, not a discussion about doing one.

Perhaps adding a "?" to the title would help so it doesn't look like it is, in fact, a tactica.

As far as the debate of Salamanders vs. Razordons, I think that they both have uses in their own rights. One is more effective than the other in various situations that are far too difficult to categorize although, thesecondman provides some excellent examples. I may be open to putting together a Razordon Tactica later next week. It looks like Salamanders are going to be covered eventually.

 

[Magic_karl]

Re: Salamander Tactica

If there is going to be a tactica, then I'd love to know if salamaders are best used alone or in packs of 2/3 etc. Also are your rare choices in lower point games best spent on an ancient Stegadon rather?

 

[TheAncientOne]

Alone, So they can aim at multiple units and cause checks, as well as to not have a 200pt unit of 3 sallies and handlers wiped out on a good charge.

 

[thesecondman]

""Alone, So they can aim at multiple units and cause checks, as well as to not have a 200pt unit of 3 sallies and handlers wiped out on a good charge.""

Important point, stands for Razordons as well.

As for taking a stegadon instead as a rare choice..nah
Take an Eotg, and no more stegadons.
2 is naughty.
But if you must, then simply take it as a mount for a chief, causing it to not take up a rare slot.

 

[camo-skink]

i find units of two razordons, or at least in my case, much more effective than just one. and i didn't quite understand how alone, salamanders and razordons could fire at multiple targets.

camo-skink

 

[TheAncientOne]

2 is naughty.
But if you must, then simply take it as a mount for a chief, causing it to not take up a rare slot.

And make it ancient, and give him steggy warspear. 2d6+1 str 6 impact hits, as well as a str 6 skink chief on the charge? Naughty-er.

 

[TheAncientOne]

i find units of two razordons, or at least in my case, much more effective than just one. and i didn't quite understand how alone, salamanders and razordons could fire at multiple targets.

camo-skink

If you have one unit of two sallies/razors+crew, they must all fire at the same target. That's not as bad for razors in my opinion, but sallies would omnly cause panic checks on max 1 unit per shooiting, whereas if you can spare the slots, two units of sallies/razors can each fire at a different units.
I can see how you got confused, but we mean that having two seperate units can EACH fire at ONE unit, not just having one unit of TWO fire at ONE.
Does that clear it up?... I know I didn't word it very well... But, hope it helps!
Holy cow!!!! I'm a Saurus!!!

 

[camo-skink]

thanks for clearing that up , and congrats on your new rank!

camo-skink

 

[SlannOfItza]

I personally like my salamanders in two units of single salamanders for panic tests. I had alot of doubts about razordons, but I'm considering play-testing them before I make any final calls.

Though I disagree that two units of 1 razordon is a good idea. I feel like one of the best things about razordons is the stand and shoot, and to scare off a charge, or best-case scenario, kill a charge to the point where its useless against your razordons. But I feel like in order to be effective a unit of 3 is required. That way your getting easy panic checks, completely killing fav cast unit in one, maybe two rounds of shooting. And if something charges you, they are taking anywhere from 12 to 60 shots and possibly killing it dead, or killing it so badly that the enemy charging will easily loose combat against the 6 Str 5 attacks of the razordons themselves.

I could see 3 razordons killing a charge of 5-6 heavily armored knights low enough to survive and fend off that hammer unit. I guess I'll have to try it out, and preference counts for something...Which ever you pick,

Good Luck.

 

[TheAncientOne]

Yes, although you'd have to roll real well for each razor. Mainly because for each 2 dice, if one misfires, then neither count. (and skinks die)

 

[novatomato]

But I feel like in order to be effective a unit of 3 is required.

This is partially true, but I find that a unit of two razzies is an effective deterrent and is quite cheaper. I always get the extra handler as it only requires two poor rolls to eliminate the standard handling crew (this goes for both sallies and razzies) so the unit of one costs 80 points, which is enough for ten skinkishers (with javs if you want).

Essentially what I am trying to say is that the higher the points limit of the game, the more packs per rare slot
up to 1500 points take one, 2000 points take two and 2500 take three.

 

[Dreadgrass]

I only ever take sallies in packs of 1 these days after having a test game with 2 units of 3.... this was insanely powerful and really decimated my opponents army but made my turns take 3 times as long after determining 6 templates...

 

[Cuachicqueh]

I love sallies, hands down. The key to using sallies is getting them on the flank of the enemy, hitting ranks horizontally can yield 5-6 fulls and upwards to 12 partials and that is just from one sallie. The major problem i believe lizardmen players face is that their sallies are firing directly in front of enemy units, thereby vunerable to charges etc. Get your sallies in the flanks.
Stick the unit in a strategically placed building. They are two advantages to this. One; enemy cavalry cannot assault a building. Two, if it is two stories, you count as firing from an elavated position. This means you can "shoot over" units. Also, as the building rules state, the unit fires from one point of the building. This extends the range of shooting units phenominally. Without having to move your unit back in forth to engage different targets to shoot, you can shoot from any point of, lets say a 6'' by 8'', building in any direction. Drooling yet? Keep reading.
With regular shooting unit such as archers, if you stick them in a building they all fire from one point of the building, the players choice. You measure all shots from one point of the building, roll to hit, wound etc. This also applies to salamanders template weapons. So long as you are aiming at the unit you are shooting at you can manipulate how many models you can possibly hit by how you position your flame templates. All the salamanders shoot from the same point; if you are good, you can do ALOT of damage with horizontal and diagonal flames raking across rank and file troops with a fair amount of consistency.
Now here's a dirty trick. Let's say you have a friendly unit locked in combat against a particularly tough to kill enemy unit. For sake of example, lets say this is a nasty unity of plaguebearers and their pesky regeneration. Now let's say that this combat is sandwiched between your unit of salamanders in the building and another enemy unit on the opposite side. The warhammer rulebook states that you cannot shoot into combat, however, if there is a situation where a template lands short etc. shots are counted against friend and foe alike. Your sallies can see the enemy unit on the other side of the combat; they are too far away to be hit but this doesnt stop you from shooting your sallies at them. You aim your templates from the building towards the "target" unit, roll how far it goes, and WHOOPS! My flame template lands into combat hitting 5+ enemy models. This can be crucial in taking out ranks and number advantages and because they are plaguebearers in our example and the sallies have flaming attacks, NO REGENERATION. Now because all the sallies shoot from the same place you can get good at hitting ALOT of enemy models. I will post pics to demonstrate visually how this can work if you don't quite follow.