7th Ed. Rod of the storm

[DonkeyHotep]

Snowy Wolf I don't think you understand at all. It is counterable, but not when they are out of dice and scrolls, then it just gets through. That's how magic works, after you overcome their dispel dice and scrolls, nothing can be countered, anything that is successfully cast goes off. I.E. you throw it as your last spell in the 2nd or third turn, not as an opener. Further, heavens is a wonderful lore for toad simply because.

A. It's spells have infinite range, so you can be in a corner and still pew, and it's 3 damaging spells are good against high armor, large groups, and ...well a basic pew. It's luckomancy spells are also amazing, even portent of far on skinks is like getting 6 2/3 extra shots on a group of 20, and is extra better on things like CO cav. Amul is just amazing in general and celestial shield is great for shooting standoffs, which happens often if you are going all heavens since, you know, infinite range.

For barotek, it's not enough that people think the item is not bad, I'm trying to convince them that this item is AMAZING and should be crammed into every army that can easily afford the space, which most can, especially in place of for example... plaque of tepok, or even the cupped hands if toad is taking an easy lore like life.

 

[strewart]

Gee, how much do other armies pay for a level 4 wizard... 250 points with no items? okay, toad is only a bit more then that bare.

~Snip~

My god, toad displaces like 575+ points of command structure, and though he may not contribute any attacks like these other guys do he makes up for it by being hard to kill. (he gets a 4+ ward save, which costs about 45 points typically, and gets it ....FOR FREE!?!?!?!) He also cheats like a mofo in the second ranks, and you can't hide from his spells. Oh, and with a 50 points upgrade he knows 6 spells and generates maybe a bit more then 6 PD.

Toad will pretty much by himself chunk enough pew pew at the enemy that he can soak most of their DD by himself, one or two skink priests can then run amok and guess what.... USE THIS ITEM. (I also like using the blood statuette and some power stones all in the same turn, because it is most effective with magic to throw it all in one turn to get everything through. It's called an alpha strike, and it's a classic military maneuver, because wearing down their resistance over 6 turns is not as important as pewing slightly less all on turn one or two to weaken them right before they get to you.

Damn you DonkeyHotep, damn you! You have just made my choice between carnosaur and Slann in an army list soooo much harder.

You should copy your post and make it the bulk of the Slann FAQ, I haven't seen the Slann talked up so much and all his advantages described so well before.

 

[snowywlf]

Snowy Wolf I don't think you understand at all. It is counterable, but not when they are out of dice and scrolls, then it just gets through. That's how magic works, after you overcome their dispel dice and scrolls, nothing can be countered, anything that is successfully cast goes off. I.E. you throw it as your last spell in the 2nd or third turn, not as an opener.

*sigh* Let me spell it out very precisely.

Seriously? You guys think this item is bad? It kills chaos knights. That's all it ever HAS to do, there's pretty much not a darn thing in the army that is effective against chaos knights (and blood knights) except magic, and all too often WOC have decent magic defense since their caddies can beat face and have 2+ armor.

This is the original argument. 1. Magic is the only really effective thing we have against Chaos Knights. 2. This item is useful because WOC usually have decent magic defense.

This item *is* magic. It has the exact same counter-ability as any other magic.

This is my counter-argument. 1. If you are unable to use your standard magic successfully against these units because it is being dispelled, the Rod of the Storms can easily suffer the exact same fate.

Further, I even acknowledged the potential benefit of the item:

It does bring the benefit of allowing you a 'free' cast, meaning you dont have to use Power Dice and the opponent may be out of Dispel Dice or Dispel Scrolls.

This is still a gamble. If you are fighting such prodigious magic defense that your Slann isn't able to get spells through, it is also extremely possible that this one attempt will not get through either. And one attempt is all you get.

Is the item useless? Definitely not. It can return the points invested and then some. However, there are also several factors that make it very situational. You are a huge fan of the item, that's cool. Denying the negative aspects of the item doesn't help others.

I think it has been summed up fairly well at this point. The item can return points if you are fighting certain armies with high armor save, expensive models and you have enough magic power to penetrate their magic defense. If either of those two criteria aren't met, you'd most likely do better to take something else.

Further, heavens is a wonderful lore for toad simply because.

Personally I think Lore of Heavens for a Slann is going to be a non-optimal choice. Which isnt to say it is useless. There are a few neat little tricks in Heavens, but I think one of the major powers of the Slann is being able to choose his Lore to fit his opponent. And I think several other Lores are going to be much more effective against various armies than Heavens.

One significant point is that all the 'neat little tricks' in Heavens are typically castable by your Skink Priests. Basically anything in Lore of Heavens is castable by a Level 2 Skink Priest if you are willing to invest a general Power Pool dice for Comet and maybe Uranon's Thunder Bolt. If you have a Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods, all the spells become even more accessible. In addition, the Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods is going to have Large Target line of site, giving him the same visual range as a Slann (as well as greater maneuverability).

And Skink Priests make *far* better choices for the two Remain in Play spells than a Slann.

1. Comet of Casandora (which I love dearly) is going to either be a waste 25% of the time it is successfully cast (50% chance of it going off Opponents Turn and 50% chance of it going off your turn) or it is going to keep your Slann from casting at all during your next magic phase (I rather doubt most people would choose this option). But a Skink Priest can sit there and keep it going as long as need be without worrying much about his 1 other castable spell.

2. Celestial Shield is less significant in this way. Typically you will be casting it at the end of your magic phase and just maintaining it until the beginning of your next magic phase. However, if you are using it on a Skink Priest, it may be worth simply maintaining the spell instead of using 2 Power Dice to re-attempt it.

Also remember that even though you have unlimited range with your Lore of Heavens, every other lore (excepting Life) is going to have Magic Missiles that you can channel through your Skink Priests. This gives you significantly greater range than any other Wizard is going to have.

The downside to letting your Skink Priests cover your Lore of Heavens needs is that they have to roll for their spells. This does make it less predictable of course.

I think a lone Slann could do really well with the Lore of Heavens. It lets him stay *way* back and cast (remember he doesnt get Large Target line of sight when he is alone) while beefing up the rest of your army. And you'll likely have lots more army if you arent paying through the nose for all those Temple Guard.

In summary, I think you can comfortably cover the benefits of Lore of Heavens using Skink Priests and let your Slann use a specifically tailored Lore for your enemy.

Oh and I agree with you on the usefulness of the Slann in general. They really do make the cornerstone of our army. Fantastic abilities for their point value. Of course, who can resist loading them up with even more powers?


Edit: And thanks for the link to that PDF. I made my own Excel of the various statistical probabilities, but it is nice to also have some of the more unusual things like Skaven flee chance and re-roll probabilities.

 

[DonkeyHotep]

Okay snowywulf, I'll sum up my argument with a parallel statement. Chaos knights are resistant to low strength weapons right? So what beats them? HIGH strength weapons. Warriors of chaos are very often resistant to low magic armies, so what beats them? HIGH magic armies.

Sometimes, when I have no other choice, I'll just chunk like a bizillion skink darts at the knights, they'll fail the roll eventually, and you are only likely to kill 4 times as many marauders with your darts under normal circumstances, if you can kill 24 marauders, you can kill 6 knights. I have a motto that sums up my psychology on the subject, and hopefully explains my defense of the Rod, my motto is "throw enough shit at a wall and some of it will stick", in polite company the word 'sticks' is sometimes used, as a counter to the statement "it's like throwing sticks at a wall".

Also, if you've read my army list you'll find that I do in fact run one slann with no skinks priests, or in fact any other heroes at all. Further, I never consider the temple guard "paying through the nose" I'd pay 20 points for these guys, they're that good. There are a great number of armies that literally have no good answer to temple guard, they just can't get rid of them in 6 turns. (I.E. wood elves in general, empire that doesn't have krazey kannons, or brettonia, yes brettonia, even grail knights will be hard pressed to get rid of ALL of them without having a column of 12 guys)

Temple guard are only 6 points more then flagelants, and by most peoples reckoning, flagelants are a super helpful part of the army because.... they are unbreakable. The problem with flagelants is that they are ws 2 T 3 and have no armor of any kind, so as a tarpit they get mowed down by anything with crazy beats. Temple Guard are darn near the same damage output on the charge, more in subsequent rounds, and have a mighty 2+ armor in tarpit mode AND more toughness. Toad also gives you 64 points worth of rank fill.

 

[DonkeyHotep]

To get backer on topic, I think the rod is most helpful when you don't have the time to do things over more turns, and it's one use is a benefit in that situation (by being cheaper). If you've got more turn to pew people, just take some scrolls or chameleon skinks or something, they'll kill 2/3 of a knight over 6 turns by throwing 6's.

 

[Todes]

im thinking of getting this item from one priest, on my list i got a slann, and 2 priests. one has diadem of power. most of the time i face WoC with knights and chosens, Empire with 7 to 8 outriders, or dark elves with cold one knights.

WoC got knights units with MR2 from a lord, 2 lvl2s one in disc, other with marauder horsemen so thts 4 DD and 4 Scrolls.

Empire has guy on altar, priest, 2 lvl 2s, 2 scrolls 7 DD and 2 scrolls

Elves got lvl 4, 2 lvl 2s, and 2 or 3 scrolls.

Chosen, lonemages, outriders, cold one knithgs, all of them are great targets for Rod of storm, even if they use a scroll on the first turn, i see that as a win, if they out of scrolls the first turn or maybe the second i can cast all my powerfull magic with the slann without having it dispelled by scrolls.

 

[lupercal]

this question brings up another can a priest that cast the comet and is waiting for it to land use the rod since he would not be casting but simply using the spell

 

[Dreadgrass]

Regarding the MR2 Knights, it probably goes without saying but unless you like running against the odds and crossing your fingers a lot, I wouldn't throw your Bounditems here, The MR gives 2 free dice against every spell thrown at them, so your a below average chance of successfully casting regardless of what else they can throw into the mix.

To summarise, the Rod seems useful for situations where you can tailor your list to suit your opponent, in magic heavy lists for medium to large games to add a little hidden punch to an attack or knock a rank off an elite unit (or yes, dim a Knight units charge) also, in games (generally 1000 pts or less) where having a single shot at an elite unit can make a big difference.

@ Lupercal, good question and if the answer is no and he "counts as" casting, then can a slann with the rod get +1 PD added to the value (presume not as the value is pre determined)

 

[Todes]

yeah, thats why i wouldnt use the rod on the knights with MR2, id use it to Lonemage, chosens...

 

[strewart]

Hmm I forgot to check this last night, the rulebook in the magic section does clearly define if a bound item actually counts as a spell for the purpose of RiP stuff. I believe it does, but I can't remember 100%.

 

[Hodges]

Im planning on taking the RotS on my Slaan. He will be running around by himself (no TG), so im planning using the item in a defensive manner. If the Slaan gets threatened by any flyers, fast cav and the like, the RotS is a bit of extra insurance. Otherwise its just another tool to overpower your opponent in one critical magic phase.