8th Ed. RipperDactyls.

[Putzfrau]

just bought a box of ripper/terradons and...

i went with terradons. rippers are cool looking, have some great fluff, but at the end of the day terradons are just head and shoulders better at just about everything.

unless you already have plenty of terradons built/painted i can't see any reason why you'd choose rippers over terradons unless you just really like the models.

Rippers are more durable and hit harder - they're unpredictable slightly because of frenzy, and has no ranged attack.

Terradons have a ranged attack, and can drop rocks - they can even take more than one round to kill a warmachine.

I really don't see why you'd make the assessment that Terra's are better - both units excell at very different roles.

As a Chaff / redirector sure terradons are way better, but rippers are a combat unit or a warmachine hunter (depending on unit size) and will also attract a lot more attention (which isn't necessarily bad).

What's your reason to believe so i wonder?

low toughness, subpar strength and leadership means unless they are attacking the unit with the toad their combat effectiveness, at least in my opinion, isn't anything special.

terradons are a better redirector, as you mentioned, but are also a better war machine hunter (all my opinion of course). between rocks and poison a terradon is going to do pretty well against most war machines, especially when combined with the unit of chameleon skinks I always bring.

as you said, rippers are unpredictable. they can either make a mess, or do nothing. terradons seem to always at least do something. even if you drop rocks on something less than ideal, a unit of 3 has ~6 automatic strength 4 hits, before using their javelins. I don't like risky units. frenzy on top of everything I already mentioned makes me very hesitant to use rippers, especially given how I play/what I enjoy.

the difference in points, while not massive, also plays into my decision. 3 terradons comes in at just a hair over 100 points. that's practically a throw away unit.

to really shine it seems rippers need to be in a larger unit, or in several units, which means a larger points investment.

also I tend to be a defensive player, so I thought rippers would be difficult for me to use effectively.

all in all, rippers don't wow me. they seem like a fun unit, that has some really fantastic rules, but the whole package just isn't there. if a saurus was on the back I would have bought them in droves, but they just seem too glass cannon-y for me.

if they were going to hit first more often, or be a little bit tougher it would be an entirely different story. rippers seem to require a near perfect charge or engage for them to be effective. you get them into the wrong unit and they are losing a model or two before they even attack, and at that point you're just giving away VPS. as it stands they are just too risky, and for me since it was a choice between making terradons and making rippers, the choice was obvious. terradons are still one of the strongest units in the book and are almost always at least worth their points.

if it wasn't a strict "you can have rippers or terradons" i'd consider rippers more. if I had more money to spend i'd be much more willing to grab another box and make up some rippers just to give it a try, but as it stands I have to be fairly strict with the units I want in my list/want to buy due to monetary constraints.

 

[VampTeddy]

just bought a box of ripper/terradons and...

i went with terradons. rippers are cool looking, have some great fluff, but at the end of the day terradons are just head and shoulders better at just about everything.

unless you already have plenty of terradons built/painted i can't see any reason why you'd choose rippers over terradons unless you just really like the models.

Rippers are more durable and hit harder - they're unpredictable slightly because of frenzy, and has no ranged attack.

Terradons have a ranged attack, and can drop rocks - they can even take more than one round to kill a warmachine.

I really don't see why you'd make the assessment that Terra's are better - both units excell at very different roles.

As a Chaff / redirector sure terradons are way better, but rippers are a combat unit or a warmachine hunter (depending on unit size) and will also attract a lot more attention (which isn't necessarily bad).

What's your reason to believe so i wonder?

low toughness, subpar strength and leadership means unless they are attacking the unit with the toad their combat effectiveness, at least in my opinion, isn't anything special.

terradons are a better redirector, as you mentioned, but are also a better war machine hunter (all my opinion of course). between rocks and poison a terradon is going to do pretty well against most war machines, especially when combined with the unit of chameleon skinks I always bring.

as you said, rippers are unpredictable. they can either make a mess, or do nothing. terradons seem to always at least do something. even if you drop rocks on something less than ideal, a unit of 3 has ~6 automatic strength 4 hits, before using their javelins. I don't like risky units. frenzy on top of everything I already mentioned makes me very hesitant to use rippers, especially given how I play/what I enjoy.

the difference in points, while not massive, also plays into my decision. 3 terradons comes in at just a hair over 100 points. that's practically a throw away unit.

to really shine it seems rippers need to be in a larger unit, or in several units, which means a larger points investment.

also I tend to be a defensive player, so I thought rippers would be difficult for me to use effectively.

all in all, rippers don't wow me. they seem like a fun unit, that has some really fantastic rules, but the whole package just isn't there. if a saurus was on the back I would have bought them in droves, but they just seem too glass cannon-y for me.

if they were going to hit first more often, or be a little bit tougher it would be an entirely different story. rippers seem to require a near perfect charge or engage for them to be effective. you get them into the wrong unit and they are losing a model or two before they even attack, and at that point you're just giving away VPS. as it stands they are just too risky, and for me since it was a choice between making terradons and making rippers, the choice was obvious. terradons are still one of the strongest units in the book and are almost always at least worth their points.

if it wasn't a strict "you can have rippers or terradons" i'd consider rippers more. if I had more money to spend i'd be much more willing to grab another box and make up some rippers just to give it a try, but as it stands I have to be fairly strict with the units I want in my list/want to buy due to monetary constraints.

I can see your points, i really can, but i still believe they serve different puposes - and Rippers have more likelihood of dealing damage in a combat (should a small unit miraculously reach it).

Maybe one of their biggest strength is the amount of attention they can get.

Their tactical strength by placing a feared toad is actually rather decent but they might not be worth the work needed to make them work.

I'm still in the process of debating over them with myself, but currently they ARE losing out, but i still believe i am bad at using them.

All of that said, i would actually consider a dream list of mine to include 1x 6 rippers, 1 x 3 rippers, and 2 x 3 Terradons. The amount of speed and board control included in that setup would be huge, and while expensive it also provides 4 units with board presence only paralleled by other flying cavalry!

 

[Pinktaco]

I suppose their strenght is the fear of the toad and the potential damage output they can do. 6 Rippers will cost you 240pts and can't be one-shot by a cannonball, something an ancient stegadon can.

I personally think they're great unit, but they need practice to use. You'll have to keep the general nearby otherwise they'll just go ahead like nobodys business.

so in other words it's a relative cheap unit that can potentially make your opponent worry about them and thus no on your other units.

 

[Lizardmatt]

I find them easy to use.
I deploy them behind my infantry and advance with them.
If my opponent foolishly leaves a character exposed in a unit, I charge over my infantry and into his character bunker.

Usually enough survive to swing on the character, and often take him out before they unit is beaten back.
If they pursue my fleeing rippers, they are chasing towards my blocks of saurus with spears; who really want to take the charge.

Then you've got the psychological impact of the two toad markers...

-Matt

 

[godswearhats]

Then you've got the psychological impact of the two toad markers...

This is something that I think most players underrate. Too often, the comparison between units comes down to their stats, but in reality you are fighting a battle against another human who will make mistakes. The more mistakes you can force him to make, the more likely you are to win NO MATTER WHAT IS IN YOUR ARMY.

*ahem* pardon the shouting

So, if I have units that are going to put him on edge and maybe make him make a mistake that he otherwise wouldn't have made, yes I'm going to be excited about taking that unit.
~gwh

 

[Lizardmatt]

Yup; it's exactly why I like Rippers and Razors.
I've had a fairly hot hand rolling the Razordons, and the threat of 60 S4 shots causes my opponents problems.

If I can make my opponent worry about Razdons, Rippers and Chameleons, odds are good whatever they had planned for battle just went out the window.

If my opponent is Init 3 or worse, I'll throw both ripper units (6 rippers total) into the front of the enemy.

~36 S4 attacks (30 of which re-roll to hit), is something you cannot shrug off.
If my opponent stands off, Razordons pepper him with spiky death, and chameleons start to work on his flanks.


I really want to give my opponent tough decisions and make him react to me, not allow him to force me to react.

-Matt

 

[Fork Tongue]

One thing I have seen mentioned previous about our Ripperdactl friends is the propsed tactic of playing them in units of 6. 3 x 2.
This I fear has been bad advice, monsterous cav, only give a max of 3 supporting attacks from the rider and not the beast.
Great for Khrone Juggers.... extra attack from a skink any one?

Hope the Old Ones here may correct me, as I very recently splashed out on 3 boxes of Rippers.

That being said, Rippers are a 1st class unit for character assassin. Last game, 3 units of 3, took out a Bret Lord, lvl 4 Dam, lvl 2 Dam..... well they do need hand of glory for the Int. boost.

Fork Tongue

 

[hdctambien]

One thing I have seen mentioned previous about our Ripperdactl friends is the propsed tactic of playing them in units of 6. 3 x 2.
This I fear has been bad advice, monsterous cav, only give a max of 3 supporting attacks from the rider and not the beast.

The reason I would do this is because by the time you get them into combat and it's their turn to attack 2 - 3 of them are already dead. You're not running that second rank for supporting attacks, you're running it for supporting Wounds so that your primary attacks get a chance to attack.

 

[Sleboda]

Agreed. Even in my limited experience with my unit of 5, I've seen that the two in the back are really just there for the wounds.

By the way, this is an 8th edition thing in many ways. You need to take enough of something so that it does...something[/]. Just look at my Kroxigor for an example. Six of them were ok-ish, but 8 really do the job, and the reason is because they are still combat-effective after losing 6 wounds.

As the old saying goes, "in for a penny, in for a pound."

 

[kroxigor01]

I think they only way to play Rippers is with 3 units. Having 3 Toads means each unit has 3x times the targets.

Sure will get shot but who cares? They are ITP, -1 to be hit and have 4+ armour. Good as it gets as a shooting absorbent in our Army Book.

1 ripper Killing Blows a (WS6 or lower) character in a toaded unit 48% of the time. Some lightly armoured characters (wizards) you won't even need the Killing Blow for. Basically, any unit that can't kill 3 rippers before they strike can't house a character.

There is also the "don't use these 3 units" psychology of the toads because any ripper flank charge on even high quality units is going to take a lot to get out of ahead.

Remember that rippers can handily kill any untoaded missile unit, lone characters and warmachines more effectively than Terradons.

 

[Putzfrau]

I think they only way to play Rippers is with 3 units. Having 3 Toads means each unit has 3x times the targets.

Sure will get shot but who cares? They are ITP, -1 to be hit and have 4+ armour. Good as it gets as a shooting absorbent in our Army Book.

1 ripper Killing Blows a (WS6 or lower) character in a toaded unit 48% of the time. Some lightly armoured characters (wizards) you won't even need the Killing Blow for. Basically, any unit that can't kill 3 rippers before they strike can't house a character.

There is also the "don't use these 3 units" psychology of the toads because any ripper flank charge on even high quality units is going to take a lot to get out of ahead.

Remember that rippers can handily kill any untoaded missile unit, lone characters and warmachines more effectively than Terradons.

3 units is more than a 300 point investment. that many points of terradons and chameleon skinks is still going to do a better job of war machine hunting than 400ish points of rippers. also means you're probably going without a temple guard unit or without a bastiladon. special points are tight, between bastiladons, temple guard, terradons, and chameleon skinks i cant see the return investment on 60% of your special points (or more) being taken up by what is essentially described as a disposable war machine hunting unit.

killing war machines isn't something lizardmen have trouble doing. getting a nice KB on a character, i can see the logic in that, but it seems redundant to constantly hold rippers up as some kind of war machine killing gem, when lizardmen already some of the best war machine hunting options in the game.

i dunno. i guess i'm just bitter that rippers have such an interesting dynamic, some really nice special rules, but are completely ruined (at least for me) by low initiative, toughness, and leadership. a nice armor piercing unit would have been amazing, but anything you want to use them on (monstrous cav, anything woc) is going to strike first and destroy them before they even get to attack.

 

[Lizardmatt]

I've had luck with them monstrous cav hunting.
You do need to hit in the flank, and if they are outclassed, you'll need the toad marker.

If you go into the flank of skullcrushers,
You will on average come out ahead.
Flank + Charge.
The rider gets his 3 attacks, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 6+ save (expecting enscrolled weapons).
Rippers and skinks then average ~2 wounds.
Jugger then swings back and finishes a ripper.

Skull Crushers likely have a standard, but with flank and charge, the rippers win by 1.
Against a unit that's almost twice as expensive.

Against anything softer than Skullcrushers, rippers in the flank are a huge problem.

-Matt

 

[n810]

I suspect that Monsterous infantry would also be a good target (ogres, trolls, ect...)
mostly due to likely haveing higher initiave and killing blow.

 

[kroxigor01]

3 units is more than a 300 point investment. that many points of terradons and chameleon skinks is still going to do a better job of war machine hunting than 400ish points of rippers.

Terradons is the only comparison I made. Terradons are horrible warmachine hunters. Small numbers of poison shots and S4 drop rocks never hurt a war machine.

also means you're probably going without a temple guard unit or without a bastiladon. special points are tight, between bastiladons, temple guard, terradons, and chameleon skinks i cant see the return investment on 60% of your special points (or more)

Special limit is 50% of army total. I believe you are forgetting that and thinking the limit is 25%.

what is essentially described as a disposable war machine hunting unit.

No I didn't. I said they COULD hunt war machines among other things. They freak out 1 unit by giving it a toad and then they can threaten to charge and kill many small units, including but not limited to war machines.

I suspect that Monsterous infantry would also be a good target (ogres, trolls, ect...)
mostly due to likely haveing higher initiave and killing blow.

Killing blow works only against infantry, cavalry and war beasts.

 

[Pofadder]

Wherever they charge the better win combat Else they lose frenzy and become extremely ordinary MC with statlines so funny if it wasn't so bloody sad.
There is surely a intimidation factor to considered with the toad marker, but as others have stated it seems their targets are limited...And when you run 2 or 3 units your points investment is substantial.

Maybe I am just negative but tactically terradons still trump for me, even if they do not beat that cannon, every round they keep it from shooting = win. And I ALWAYS play chamo skinks so not only counting on terra's martial prowess.

Terra's can redirect, bait and flee and harass beautifully, sometimes after your chamos shot at a target you need only 1 more poison wound and at least terras can give it a go...

The kamikaze rippers are an interesting concept and if they had made the mounts I4 or I5 and T4, at least you get to offload attacks against a wider scope of enemy units. As is undead, humies and ogres (to a lesser degree) allows you chance to attack 1st or simultaneously.

And I know, get into the flank! Sorry those flanks are already taken by my steg and CoR and/ or cowboys, salamanders etc.

All just my humble opinion, different strokes for different folks after all

 

[kroxigor01]

And when you run 2 or 3 units your points investment is substantial.

But I would argue that the worth of the investment increases greater than the sum of parts because of how toads work. Ie - take 0 units or 3.

Maybe I am just negative but tactically terradons still trump for me, even if they do not beat that cannon, every round they keep it from shooting = win. And I ALWAYS play chamo skinks so not only counting on terra's martial prowess.

If it was "chameleons, terradons, rippers, pick 2!" then I totally agree with you that rippers should never be taken. But that isn't the choice. I think it is possible to construct a good army with 3 units of rippers and enough terradons and chameleons to be successful.

All just my humble opinion, different strokes for different folks after all

For sure. Most of my lists won't have rippers in them. That doesn't mean they are an unfieldable unit.

 

[Lizardmatt]

The kamikaze rippers are an interesting concept and if they had made the mounts I4 or I5 and T4, at least you get to offload attacks against a wider scope of enemy units. As is undead, humies and ogres (to a lesser degree) allows you chance to attack 1st or simultaneously.

And I know, get into the flank! Sorry those flanks are already taken by my steg and CoR and/ or cowboys, salamanders etc.

And orcs and goblins, dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, undead are two armies. Some of the daemons as well.
In practice, I only find them lacking a good kamikaze against high elves, ogres, and warriors. Dark elves tend to have a peg character I can go after (who doesn't do enough wounds to stop at least a handful of killing blow attacks).

As for the Flanks, I have a much easier time with a M10 flyer than a M6 monster getting into the flank.
Though when I run both, I can sometimes get rippers behind, and either infantry in the front and steg on the flank, or steg in the front, and infantry and rippers in both flanks.

As for terradons, I have problems getting them to rally, and I'd rather use a 50 point cohort than a 105 points of terradons.

Another option for Ripperdactyles is running a unit champ with them, and then a chief on a ripper. 3S5 attacks (spear) from the chief, and the ripper with a 2+ armor save is a threat. The ripperdactyle unit champ will absorb a challenge from a unit champ, and the chief will swing on the enemy character. If you hit from two different sides, you'll flee in different directions if/when you break, at most losing 1 of the two units. You could swap out ripper chief with cowboy and do the same thing, but the mobility of the ripper chief is a bit easier.

-Matt

-Matt

 

[Putzfrau]

as others have said, different strokes for different folks.

rippers can be effective, I don't think anyone is arguing they can't be.

some, such as myself, just seem to have hesitations on whether they can be consistently effective.

however, if every army looked the same that would be boring. some models will mesh better with how specific generals play, while other players will struggle to make them effective.

 

[Madrck]

Just wondering if I'm missing something but why would you ever compare terradons and rippas in the same sentence?
The only things they have in common are that they are built out of the same box and are flying cav. Even the skink on the back is different (one is spear and on is jav). It's like comparing apples and plums

 

[Sleboda]

as others have said, different strokes for different folks.

rippers can be effective, I don't think anyone is arguing they can't be.

some, such as myself, just seem to have hesitations on whether they can be consistently effective.

=> Ever since I have replaced my Troglodon with Rippers, I've had better luck (or at the very least felt that those roughyl 200 points contributed more). They are therefor, for me, been consistently effective.