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8th Ed. (Redirect To) Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen!

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Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Caneghem said:
The rule is triggering an extra batch of attacks, and since each time PF is triggered it can only generate one attack per model, supporting attacks' limit is inconsequential.
Click to expand...

I think PF will be FAQed to allow for supporting attacks, but as the supporting attacks rule is written and the PF rule, I think it is pretty clear that they do not get extra attacks.

Predatory Fighter: ""Whenever a model with this special rule roles a 6 To Hit, it immediately makes another Attack..."

Supporting Attacks: "a warrior making a supporting attack ... can only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects."

Predatory Fighter is a "special rule" that generates extra attacks and Supporting Attacks can never be more than 1 even with a "special rule" or "unusual effect".

Since PF specified "a Model" and not "the Unit" it is easy to argue that a model making a supporting attack cannot "make another Attack".

Also, for the Army Book trumping BRB rules, this rule is pretty specific that "he can only ever make a single attack" no matter what. If the Army Book was going to trump this rule, I think it would have to specifically say that "even supporting attacks can make another Attack"

I do think the spirit of the rule is that all attackers can get extra attacks, so I'm hoping for a quick FAQ.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

You're adding words to the rules for supporting attacks just so you know. It states:

"...he can only make a single attack, regardless of the number of attacks on his profile, or any bonus attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects."

The attack granted from PF occurs after the initial attacks take place. The models are only attacking with their 1 attack. After that, if it was a 6 to hit you may roll another attack. Think of it as if the attack was so great in strength that the blow continued on to another enemy model thus giving another hit for that same single attack from the supporting rank.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

If some one can please pm me lint to torrent for pdf book i but be verry happy :)
I would like first to see everything and then order every models i need and then the book because where i live shipping for loca sellers take long :/
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

hdctambien said:
Caneghem said:
The rule is triggering an extra batch of attacks, and since each time PF is triggered it can only generate one attack per model, supporting attacks' limit is inconsequential.
Click to expand...

I think PF will be FAQed to allow for supporting attacks, but as the supporting attacks rule is written and the PF rule, I think it is pretty clear that they do not get extra attacks.

Predatory Fighter: ""Whenever a model with this special rule roles a 6 To Hit, it immediately makes another Attack..."

Supporting Attacks: "a warrior making a supporting attack ... can only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects."

Predatory Fighter is a "special rule" that generates extra attacks and Supporting Attacks can never be more than 1 even with a "special rule" or "unusual effect".

Since PF specified "a Model" and not "the Unit" it is easy to argue that a model making a supporting attack cannot "make another Attack".

Also, for the Army Book trumping BRB rules, this rule is pretty specific that "he can only ever make a single attack" no matter what. If the Army Book was going to trump this rule, I think it would have to specifically say that "even supporting attacks can make another Attack"

I do think the spirit of the rule is that all attackers can get extra attacks, so I'm hoping for a quick FAQ.
Click to expand...

Again though, the way they wrote the Supporting Attacks rule, you could interpret "they only ever make a single attack" to mean anything. Once per game? Once per turn? Once per combat phase? Once per normal batch of attacks? etc. etc. It is quite likely they were only referring at the time to frenzy and other spells that boost attacks on profile... However we're not really dealing with attacks on profile.

This is closer to the OLD Incantation of Righteous Smiting which granted a free attack during the magic phase. I'm pretty sure in 8th edition (before they got their book updated) righteous smiting allowed a single front row attack in addition to a supporting attack, though I don't remember if this was FAQ'd and I no longer have that PDF.

So I guess I retract my earlier statement, I'd like this to be FAQ'd. Hopefully we can get by just showing people the Predatory Fighters entry in the book to satisfy them, and appeal to common sense.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Interesting that it comes down to the wire for some rules interpretations...

I see both sides of the argument, but once we start arguing this strict interpretation of supporting attacks rule I'd like to know your comments on the following example:

ASF rerolls and hatred allows rerolls of misses...now this in essence allows the warrior to hit at the enemy again.

Yet it does not exclude supporting attacks, nor has it been FAQ'd to do so. In my humble opinion PF should work for supporting attacks because this special army rules above are exempt as well.

I know some will say that rerolls are not the same as a free attack, yet is it not? The dark elf player rolls his dice, 4 out the 10 missed, he rolls them again (hatred) and ends up with only 2 misses total. thus he gained 2 extra attacks. LM do not gain on their attack value on their profile they still lose their 2nd attack on their profile (saurus & TG as example). They have a 1 in 6 chance via a special rule to get an additional attack after supporting attacks have been made. Seems like the same principal as hatred and ASF rerolls (Just not as good as the aforementioned) :D

I believe it should be FAQ'd and quickly! Do I believe its OP and not in the spirit of the game? NO! It only happens on 6's and cannot stack ie you cannot generate more attacks from the extra attacks.

My thoughts on the matter...
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

I emailed GW about the Predatory Fighter + Supporting Attacks issue. Y'all should too :smug:

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Should expedite the FAQ process if they get a flood of emails about it.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

good Idea about flooding them with questions! I like it =p

Im quite sure it will be FAQd in our favour. But until it does the rulebook is crystal clear. Armybooks are supposed to override yes. But thats not what it does here. PF lets you generate a second attack, but you simply arent allowed to use it.
If you go all out word nazi on this the neisayers will actually win. And so they have done on pretty much all other forums (Thread on warseer about this got up to 9999999 pages or something). It will be fixed im sure. This is just GW being terrible and as usual they cant write rules properly to their own game. Nothing new there.

Just wait for the FAQ and it will be fixed im sure. Since splitting up dice seems like the dumbest idea ever (plus skrox not being able to use it at all).

Keep spamming them everyone!
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

OmegaHavoc said:
You're adding words to the rules for supporting attacks just so you know.
Click to expand...

I don't think I am. The only word different between my quote and yours is the word "ever" as in "he can only ever make a single attack"

I'm looking at my BRB right now and the word "ever" is right there in the beginning of that sentence. I'll check again... still there.

The other thing I did was replace (elipsisize) the word "he" to reference "a warrior making a supporting attack" which is the subject of the previous sentence that the pronoun "he" refers to.

Maybe your version of the rule book is slightly different than mine?

OmegaHavoc said:
The attack granted from PF occurs after the initial attacks take place. The models are only attacking with their 1 attack. After that, if it was a 6 to hit you may roll another attack.
Click to expand...

I don't buy this argument either. There aren't any separate attack phases where the Supporting Attacks rule suddenly doesn't apply. PF says "make an additional attack" and SA says "can only ever make a single Attack". 1 attack + 1 additional attack = 2 attacks. 2 attacks > 1 attack.

It sucks. And I think it will be FAQed. But if you are playing against someone and they as you to "show me the rule that says you get 2 supporting attacks" I think you will be hard pressed to convince them.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

The people I play with are intelligent and use common sense when playing. It won't be an issue
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

I called GWs customer service department stating I had a rules inquiry and asked about the new PF rule the man on the phone said PF is a general rule and applies to attacks in general regardless of whether its first rank second rank.

So in short there is no negative to PF for being in the second rank :) hope that helps
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Let's all be honest: PF is supposed to affect ALL attacks, anyone who starts rule lawyering against it is a douche...
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

So, in that regard, the supporting attack gets the additional roll.

I sent my email as well.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Come on people, RAW in the case of supporting attacks would be hilarious.

"To represent this, he can only ever make a single Attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on his profile, or any bonus Attacks he might otherwise be entitled to because of special rules or other unusual effects."

RAW indicates that any given model gets a single supporting attack. Ever. Not just one per combat phase or even per game, no. That model can only ever make one supporting attack across all games. If you want more supporting attacks? Time to buy more models that haven't used their single supporting attack up. I'd suggest placing some sort of mark on the underside of the model's base, so you can more easily rotate your models around between games.

Pro Tip: Command units such as standard bearers, musicians, and champions are almost always in the front rank, but be on the lookout for times they are displaced into the second rank. Those few supporting attacks could make all the difference! Also, be sure never to use up any of your models' supporting attacks during friendly games. These precious power ups should only be used on the highest tables at the grandest of tournaments!
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Thanks for the great review, eagerly looking forward to the next parts! The Piranha Blade/Stegadon Helm combo made me giggle. So much awesomeness! I think the new Lizardmen have more options for D3/multiwounds than any other army out there. It's kinda our thing now, like Killing Blow is for Tomb Kings (hopefully the following FAQ don't nerf it time and again, like has happened to Killing Blow).
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Greetings all. I have just been reading this forum for the first time, seeing as I don't play lizardmen and wanted to know about the new book as I'm fighting my friends army on Thursday with my Tomb Kings. I just needed to make a comment about this PF extra attack with supporting ranks.
I say that you roll for your unit, with the normal number of attacks, and each 6 you get another attacks happens, it does not matter what rank it was from, they all count, and yes, I will only ever see this against myself.
Now I have one thing to back-up this thought, and that is with the new Daemons book one of the Nurgle Locus gives the unit an extra Str4 hit for each 6 they roll when hitting. This has been in the book since it came out six month ago, and it has not been errated to state this is only the front rank which gain this extra damage (effectivley a second hit).
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

My comment on the review is a minor issue but misunderstood. The oldblood is vastly under-rated. Ibn part this is due to the tendency of people to invest too much in the Slann such that they cannot properly kit out the oldblood. The ability to take 100 points of magic items and greater scaly skin and +1 attack, +1 I and +1 WS is huge. It is really vastly under-rated in 8th ed. Take armour of destiny and dawnstone and shiled and you still have room for a magic weapon or enchanted item and end up with a 1+ rerollable AS and a 4+ ward. It makes the old blook one of the best fighting lords in the game. Alternatively, run great weapon and no shield and you have a 2+ rerollable As and 4+ ward save. and rock and roll. OTS is sometimes a good use for the extra points. My son ran over opponents with that build. It is huge in a meta with where we are seeing a lot of warior of chaos armies spamming core and special chariots and skulllcrushers and demigryph knights in Empire armies. It is one of the only lords able to take on a WoC daemon prince, Greater Daemon, chaos lord, dark elf dreadlord and VC lord. with some magic help, although it needs a bit of help with some of them. Basically, the extra magic points allotment acts as a wound and force multiplier such that a single oldblood is worth more than two saurus and costs less. Also, the ability of an oldblood to charge out and take something on or take a challenge is vastly under-rated.

Of course, part of this is the fact that our sports and soft comp (relative comp) scoring in our GTs results in some resistance to allowing cupped hands and lore of life on the slann. Reputation is important and someone who can win without loremaster, lore of life, cupped hands, etc gets a lot of respect. Taking a ligher slann, especially with the loss of cupped hands, focused rumination, and loremastere+ lore of life combo, in the new book means that you are better off putting some lord points into a decent oldblood and running a slann with maybe just soul of stone and one of the two loremaster disciplines. You are less reliant on magic (which is much weaker now) and can afford to lose your slann early and still can win with skinks priests with scroll and cube (which actually happened this weekend to my son and he still placed 3rd out of 88 in battle points + adjusted comp score).
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Well, the first thing to point out is that the +1I is no more, so the Scar-Veteran to Oldblood comparison is as follows:

+1 WS
+1 W
+1 A
+1 armor
+50 points of magic items
+60 points base cost
More expensive mundane gear upgrades and mount options

While that's a fair price for what you're getting, I don't think there's anything particularly "wow" in that package. He really should have Ld9 to really make me want to take it. Comp doesn't really factor into my thinking (my goals are mainly to land Best General, and I would probably balk at attending comped tourneys). That said, if you can load him up and put him on a Cold One (especially given that Cold One Cavalry aren't quite so bad anymore), he can be pretty solid.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

First of all, good summary. I'll just add my thoughts;

Most of our SC's are still garbage and overpriced. Tetto is better now, that D3 Vanguard is nice, but he's still so easy to gank. They also took away Sotek's Prophet's EOTG mount option, so he's even more worthless.
Mazdamundi is still illegal at 3k or lower, due to Lord percentages. (slow clap). Well done. Oh, and he's the only 'Loremaster of anything' Slann left to us. Two gold stars.

Slann they've wrecked, IMO. We no longer get a free Discipline, but we pay 25pts more for a naked Slann. The hell? Then they nerfed all the Disciplines to be cornercase, Mystery is at least still good but the only other one of note is Convergeance (which you need a Channeling Staff to get going) or Becalming (thankfully not one use either, they've been known to do that with hero upgrades). The final kick in the teeth is the restriction of one Discipline per army, which is just flat-out retarded. So, you are still paying 350+ points on average for a Slann with modest upgrades, and we've had Cupped Hands taken out as well as our old power moves of free power dice per cast and Loremaster of anything. So irritating. At least High Magic doesn't suck, if we got a terrible army Lore as well I'd not even field a Slann at this rate.
Old-Bloods are pretty much the same. Carnosaur came down in price, so that's cool. Same build as last edition, Piranha Blade+Talisman+Potion of Speed. You don't take him to be a good General, he's a pure combat Lord. Slann are at least still good Generals and BSB's.

Scar-Vets are pretty much the same. I miss the Burning Blade, but I guess Empire and TK players were moaning too much about -3 armour and Flaming owning their characters. Lrn2 ward save. Halberd and light armour is all I'd take, and of course you can Carnosaur for the lulz now. You could also do Destiny Armour or Talisman, but I feel they're better left cheap.
Priests I think improved the most out of all our heroes. Simply because Beasts is such a perfect Lore for us, but its so bad on Slann. Spamming Wildform is great, and if you roll any of the better spells is a bonus. EOTG also got cheaper, but its a Rare choice now so no reason to take one in Heroes and waste your allowance.

Saurus are still 1pt overpriced, but at least spears are free now. I'd still take hand weapon+shield, 4+/6+ parry is still awesome and they'll die in droves. Oh, and Command is now evenly priced.
Skinks lost Jungle Poisons, because reasons. But you can buy it back to make them as pricey as the blowpipe guys. Krox are unchanged. Fast pinning unit is still cool, I wouldn't take more than two Skrox units though, they can't survive what Saurus can take on. Blowpipe Skinks are exactly the same.
Jungle Swarms are not totally useless, but I don't see why you'd ever spend points on them. Their special rule is janky and they're just too easily killed off before you can combo it up.

Temple Guard got a price downgrade, which is all they really needed. They also cleaned up the rules interactions between them and their Slann. Command costs are also brought down to reasonable prices, not the stupid random prices they charged before.
Terradons < Ripperdactyls. Rippers are insanely good. Charge backfield stuff, laugh as you KB and Frenzy them into oblivion. They're like HE Eagles, only better.
Bastilodon is lulzy, 2+ armour. Still dies to cannons, but yeah, not bad. Solar Engine everyday (Ark is meh), we need all the shooting we can get. Shame the Initative aura doesn't stack, but you wanna cover multiple units so getting two isn't bad. 24" range is good too, very little else of ours goes that far aside from magic artillery from Slann.
Steg is still good as a workhorse, Sting is still nerfed bolt thrower, got cheaper so that's cool.
COR are nice, got cheaper and more attacks (plus Predatory Fighter). I prefer a Bastilodon for ranged support but as heavy cavalry they're solid.
Chamo Skinks same as always.

EOTG is now Rare, which is awesome. All three effects now happen, but they've all been nerfed. Gungan Shield now works in melee but its down to a 6+, Burning is now a bound spell and has Flaming, Arcane Alignment doesn't stack and you only get one Lore discounted regardless of how many Engines. Take one, position it to cover important stuff with the shield, done.
Salamanders got nerfed, straight S4 Flaming now. Ah well, knew that was coming.
Razordons are alright now.
Trog is a missed opportunity. Oracle should be a Level 1 Wizard, or they should downgrade the price by 50 points. Shooting attack is meh, and instead of Multiple Wounds he has Poison because that's so useful on big monsters. I love the model and the concept, the rules are just lacking sadly. Carnosaur is just better in every way for the slight price upgrade.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

Taipan, I think you have missed/misunderstood several points in the new book. I don't want to talk too much about strategies before I actually get to play a game with the new book, but here are some corrections to the rules:

Tehenhauin can still ride EOTG Ancient Stegadon.
Carnosaur is actually one Banner of Eternal Flame's worth of points more expensive.
Skinks lost the Jungle Poisons rule, but their shooting weapons still have Poisoned Attacks rule, so other than name nothing changed there. They can now buy poisoned close combat attacks as well. But the Ld drop to 5 hurts.
Kroxigors are now S5, but they can be hit if in Skrox unit, dramatically changing how that unit is played.

I agree with you on multiple points, though. Mazdamundi's prize is ridiculous and the Troglodon a huge disappointed, but the Carnosaur option for Scar-Vets is nice and I appreciate that they at least tried to open some synergies for Jungle Swarm use. Not sure how it works, yet, though. And Skink Priests wielding Beast Magic makes me giddy! Also Skink Chiefs are quite cheap now, I'm very interested to try to add some of those to my army.
 
Re: Caneghem's Review of the New Lizardmen! Update: Heroes a

I will be keeping it simple. I will roll for my attacks as normal. I run a 6x5 HWS Saurus unit. So I get 19 attacks in total (1 extra attack from the champion) on any 6 I roll I will just roll for my extra attack.
Keeps things simple.
 
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