AoS Realmshaper Engine - Let's Crack It!

[Blitzkriyg]

I was thinking to terrains as Khorne skull altar, which must be used only by khorne nearby priests.

Unless that is a terrain that must be placed in khorne's territory, and so it would be placed after our RE. Don't recall it

It's after deployment, only us and obr are before choosing sides

 

[Blitzkriyg]

Competitive games are all about mind games and doing your best to take advantage of your opponents weaknesses. A huge piece of terrain blocking an avenue or taking up a large portion of the board is something only one other army does.

Again, it's a free bonus, why wouldn't you take it? The ability for your opponent to go into it is a wonderful bait to force them to make decisions. This is exactly what you want in a competitive environment.

I know I'll be taking it ever game and experimenting with it. I've got a DoK player who's a monster to deal with, and I think I have a way to use this against him. That and an Idoneth player.....

Haha I tricked you into getting -1 to hit and +1 save isn't really the kind of mind game that pays off. Can you imagine letting nagash get in there with a -1 to hit, 1+ rerollable save shooting arcane bolts 8 times a turn at +3 and healing 3 every turn, being able to charge out and murder anything that comes close and thinking you baited him into it

 

[Carnikang]

Haha I tricked you into getting -1 to hit and +1 save isn't really the kind of mind game that pays off. Can you imagine letting nagash get in there with a -1 to hit, 1+ rerollable save shooting arcane bolts 8 times a turn at +3 and healing 3 every turn, being able to charge out and murder anything that comes close and thinking you baited him into it

Haha, he's in a corner out of position, and now has wasted a turn of being in a box once they realize how restrictive being Garrisoned can be.
Course Nagash is a great model to go in there. Treat that as another part of the problem you have to solve with one of the tools being the engine. You're obviously not going to play it the same against Nagash as you are against Allarielle, or Tempest Eye, or any number of other builds.

Jfc, imagine thinking you'll never going to plan your strategy. Just throw it down and throw your army down. Only numbers matter.

Matter of fact, just let Nagash roll over you.

 

[Blitzkriyg]

Haha, he's in a corner out of position, and now has wasted a turn of being in a box once they realize how restrictive being Garrisoned can be.
Course Nagash is a great model to go in there. Treat that as another part of the problem you have to solve with one of the tools being the engine. You're obviously not going to play it the same against Nagash as you are against Allarielle, or Tempest Eye, or any number of other builds.

Jfc, imagine thinking you'll never going to plan your strategy. Just throw it down and throw your army down. Only numbers matter.

Matter of fact, just let Nagash roll over you.

If you're just going to put out on a corner, they don't even need to garrison it to stop you using it. The sad fact is that it's too much of a liability to run in any vaguely competitive match. The best strat to beat things like nagash is not take it. I had 3 games on the weekend trying a competitive list and didn't win the sides roll once. If I had taken the engine, my opponents sound have had a much more solid base to defend from.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

If you're just going to put out on a corner, they don't even need to garrison it to stop you using it. The sad fact is that it's too much of a liability to run in any vaguely competitive match. The best strat to beat things like nagash is not take it. I had 3 games on the weekend trying a competitive list and didn't win the sides roll once. If I had taken the engine, my opponents sound have had a much more solid base to defend from.

well ya if it's nagash cities or DoT then don't but it works fine against a melee army like gitz IJ DoK IDK FS FEC or some skaven lists it's just about when to put it on the table

 

[Grotpunter]

Haha, he's in a corner out of position, and now has wasted a turn of being in a box once they realize how restrictive being Garrisoned can be.
Course Nagash is a great model to go in there. Treat that as another part of the problem you have to solve with one of the tools being the engine. You're obviously not going to play it the same against Nagash as you are against Allarielle, or Tempest Eye, or any number of other builds.

Jfc, imagine thinking you'll never going to plan your strategy. Just throw it down and throw your army down. Only numbers matter.

Matter of fact, just let Nagash roll over you.

So you are happy about getting a terrain piece that you purposely place to a far non-important corner of the table, just so you can “mind trick” your opponent?

I’ll echo what others have said - That is a terrible design. No faction terrain piece should come with such a “feels bad” moment attached to it. It should be awesome slapping your terrain down on the table, not a matter off “hmm where will this have the least amount of impact for my opponent” - You might as well not bring it in the first place then. If the location isnt important for your opponent, it likely wont be for you either.

It is honestly so baffling to read that some people find it OK and defend the design.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

So you are happy about getting a terrain piece that you purposely place to a far non-important corner of the table, just so you can “mind trick” your opponent?

I’ll echo what others have said - That is a terrible design. No faction terrain piece should come with such a “feels bad” moment attached to it. It should be awesome slapping your terrain down on the table, not a matter off “hmm where will this have the least amount of impact for my opponent” - You might as well not bring it in the first place then. If the location isnt important for your opponent, it likely wont be for you either.

It is honestly so baffling to read that some people find it OK and defend the design.

it's less defending it and more we have to work with what we have this isn't the first time GW has screwed us even in the new book. so we are trying to make the best of a bad situation and hope they fix it soon

 

[Blitzkriyg]

well ya if it's nagash cities or DoT then don't but it works fine against a melee army like gitz IJ DoK IDK FS FEC or some skaven lists it's just about when to put it on the table

All those armies you just listed can set up in the garrison of they win sides and its on the line and if it's on a corner, they can still deny you using it on a dice roll. If you do win the roll, you can garrison in a corner and be out of range of most terrain to be anything but 6s, abs of you deploy on the line, we don't really have anything that can stand up well to a turn 1 charge, even with the buffs from garrisoning, and we have a lot of drops now, we will rarely get to choose if we go first.

it's less defending it and more we have to work with what we have this isn't the first time GW has screwed us even in the new book. so we are trying to make the best of a bad situation and hope they fix it soon

That's the thing, it's literally better to not work with what we have. Making the best of a bad situation is leaving it on the shelf

 

[Erta Wanderer]

All those armies you just listed can set up in the garrison of they win sides and its on the line and if it's on a corner, they can still deny you using it on a dice roll.

that was the point yes if they deside to garrison it you take that melee unit out of the fight even if just for 2 rounds thats not bad and if they don't then it's a big blocker for set up. some of the battle plans deployments are so small that you can keep them from deploying all of their army and they lose the units. do i wan't them to fix it? yes. is it useless? no you just have to be clever

 

[Killer Angel]

it's less defending it and more we have to work with what we have this isn't the first time GW has screwed us even in the new book. so we are trying to make the best of a bad situation and hope they fix it soon

Yep, that pretty much nails it.

That's the thing, it's literally better to not work with what we have. Making the best of a bad situation is leaving it on the shelf

nope, it still costs 0 points. we only need a couple of tricks to have it guarantee a positive result, and at that point you can bring it.

ATM, the only "sure" way to play it is to use the combo with Arcane Ruins, forcing your opponent to let you garrison the Realmshape or to concede you a further +1 to cast / rerolls.
I hope we'll discover another "win-win" scenario to play with it.

 

[Grotpunter]

Yep, that pretty much nails it.



nope, it still costs 0 points. we only need a couple of tricks to have it guarantee a positive result, and at that point you can bring it.

ATM, the only "sure" way to play it is to use the combo with Arcane Ruins, forcing your opponent to let you garrison the Realmshape or to concede you a further +1 to cast / rerolls.
I hope we'll discover another "win-win" scenario to play with it.

Well whenever I play it is with both the new and the old scenery rules. We typically only have 6 "magical" terrain pieces, so the odds of getting 1 arcane isn't exactly high. Let alone have the terrain piece be in a deployment zone.

I'm pretty sure just about everyone would prefer if the terrain deployment rules were changed to after sides were picked. The only way to get changes in the FAQ/errata is to talk about it and let GW know through AoSFAQ@gwplc.com

If they settle on this little "mini game" with our terrain piece I'm all for trying to make the best of it, but I'd rather spend time trying to convince how bad the design is.

 

[Killer Angel]

Well whenever I play it is with both the new and the old scenery rules. We typically only have 6 "magical" terrain pieces, so the odds of getting 1 arcane isn't exactly high. Let alone have the terrain piece be in a deployment zone.

EH, I see the problem.
You should really play with the official deployment rule for matched play printed in the GHB2019.
Because actual rules for faction terrains are based on the fact that the latest release is the GHB19, and that is how the game must be played. you cannot use old rules or home rules for the terrain placement, BUT follow the RAW for faction terrains. It simply cannot work.

 

[Nart]

Yeah, honestly, even bigger problem in matched play is that you have to place the faction terrain in pitched battles after of other terrain, regardless of what battletome says. So, it is very easy for opponent to set up terrain in a way, when we literally cannot place it. Seems like it is not even inteded for pitched battles at all.

And the main bane of it is the garrison rule. We didn't need it much from the start, but MW for free could be handy. Garrison rule should be removed and the MW should be activated by seraphon wizard within 3" of the engine. This will make things way more interesting.

EDIT: Sorry, GHB doesn't state WHEN the terrain should be set up, only WHERE. Ignore the first part.

 

[Grotpunter]

EH, I see the problem.
You should really play with the official deployment rule for matched play printed in the GHB2019.
Because actual rules for faction terrains are based on the fact that the latest release is the GHB19, and that is how the game must be played. you cannot use old rules or home rules for the terrain placement, BUT follow the RAW for faction terrains. It simply cannot work.

I'm talking scenery rules, like Overgrown, Damned, Arcane, Inspiring etc. We roll 1 D6 per terrain to determine if it is the new chart or old chart.

The community as a whole pretty much took a dump on the official deployment rules in the GHB2019, but from what I remember it is still officially 6 pieces of terrain. In any case, there is still very little chance that the terrain deployed in either deployment zone is arcane, so I dont get your point?

 

[Grotpunter]

And the main bane of it is the garrison rule. We didn't need it much from the start, but MW for free could be handy. Garrison rule should be removed and the MW should be activated by seraphon wizard within 3" of the engine. This will make things way more interesting.

EDIT: Sorry, GHB doesn't state WHEN the terrain should be set up, only WHERE. Ignore the first part.

It would also make the LOS aspect of the terrain piece much more awesome. Imagine if you could place it before the first unit is set up. Your little dudes could sit behind and activate it.

Right now I fear all my support heroes will be gone turn 1 to OBR catapults. Even if garrisoned having +1 save and -1 to be hit on those Skink Priests etc. wont do much good when just 1 shot has to go through.

 

[Killer Angel]

The community as a whole pretty much took a dump on the official deployment rules in the GHB2019, but from what I remember it is still officially 6 pieces of terrain. In any case, there is still very little chance that the terrain deployed in either deployment zone is arcane, so I dont get your point?

Nope.
Each player picks a number of terrains (which are divided into primary and secondary ones). Don't recall the exact number, probably 3 primary and 2 secondary.
The terrains that got a warscroll have the abilities listed on the warscroll; ONLY the terrains without a warscroll gain an ability rolled randomly.

The point is: you can pick Arcane Ruins as one of your primary terrain, and Arcane Ruins come with the arcane rule.

(The list of primary / secondary has been modified by a FAQ, but the point still stands).

 

[Alladin the Paladin]

Until we get (or don’t get) a clarification from the FAQs, I think it’s premature to get too stuck in the weeds with this debate. Should be less than a week now.

 

[ravagekitteh]

(IIRC the list of primary / secondary has been modified by a FAQ).

 

[Grotpunter]

Nope.
Each player picks a number of terrains (which are divided into primary and secondary ones). Don't recall the exact number, probably 3 primary and 2 secondary.
The terrains that got a warscroll have the abilities listed on the warscroll; ONLY the terrains without a warscroll gain an ability rolled randomly.

The point is: you can pick Arcane Ruins as one of your primary terrain, and Arcane Ruins come with the arcane rule.

(The list of primary / secondary has been modified by a FAQ, but the point still stands).

I have honestly NEVER heard of anyone actually bringing their own terrain to the table until now.

Everywhere I play you pick 6 pieces and throw them around on the table until it looks decent. You then both agree it is fine, then roll for each piece to determine if it is Damned, Arcane, Overgrown, Volcanic etc. After that each guy rolls a dice and whoever gets the highest roll gets to pick a side.

It is the same for tournaments, nowhere do you get to bring your own stuff. It is generally 6 pieces with predetermined (random) scenery effects.

 

[Killer Angel]

I have honestly NEVER heard of anyone actually bringing their own terrain to the table until now.

Everywhere I play you pick 6 pieces and throw them around on the table until it looks decent. You then both agree it is fine, then roll for each piece to determine if it is Damned, Arcane, Overgrown, Volcanic etc. After that each guy rolls a dice and whoever gets the highest roll gets to pick a side.

It is the same for tournaments, nowhere do you get to bring your own stuff. It is generally 6 pieces with predetermined (random) scenery effects.

Official tournaments are a different beast: it's up to the organization the decision on how to play the games. And pretty much always the terrains are already placed, to avoid losses of precious time.
With terrains already placed, by raw you couldn't even field our pyramid! THAT is probably the reason why I'm pretty sure the REalmshaper will be FAQed.

But in normal matched plays, that is the way the game should be played. When we meet at our gaming store, we use the available terrains.

In a friendly enviroment, when you just set up the table in a nice way… then i don't see the problem in fielding the RE after the deployment, within your table's side.
Basically: If everyone agree to don't follow RAW for the placement of terrains, then no one can argue that you must follow RAW only for your terrain.