Carnasaur
Caneghem
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"Case in point, last night I played a game versus WoC"
Well, don't expect any panic there. They get to reroll all panic checks. Also, let's see whether str 3 -3 AS hits are more likely to kill chaos warriors than str 4 hits.
Assuming T4, chaos armor + shield
10 hits of each
10 str 3 -3 = 1/3 wound * 5/6 fail armor = 5/18 (10) = 2.78
10 str 4 -1 = 1/2 wound * 1/2 fail armor = 1/4 (10) = 2.5
So yes, while str 3 isn't great, salamanders are more likely to kill T4 heavy armored stuff (2.8% more per hit). An interesting follow up calculation though, is T4 with 4+ armor vs. shooting (most dwarves). Sallies and razordons are dead even. It's just a question of "do you want panic with that?" Reduce the armor to 5+, and razordons start to pull ahead by a good bit (3.33 to 4.17). However at that point, skink javelins and blowpipes start to look pretty good as well. Less armored units tend to get shredded by our mass poison attacks.
"Now, would Razors have been better in the same game? Maybe, maybe not. I believe they would have done a little better in one sense simply becuase they had the higher ST needed to wound."
Quite likely you thought sallies were supposed to be a whole lot better than razordons, but really when the hits are even the advantage is slight. In theory, a single salamander should be able to land more hits against a block than a razordon, maybe you had some bad artillery dice rolls.
The above math assumes equal hits, but consider that on average a single razordon will put out 5 shots and score 2.5 hits. Does a salamander template score more or less than 2.5 hits (average)? It's hard to tell, since it is based on your skill at lining up shots and how the artillery dice gods favor you. But even if the front edge of the template barely clips the front rank you'll probably get 4 partials converting to 2 hits. This is on a bad shot, not an average shot. I'm sure someone could figure out what you will average at different distances but I'm not going to bother, suffice it to say that my experience is you will usually land more than 2.5 hits with that template if it more than grazes a unit.
So in the final analysis, salamanders will typically score more hits (debateable), and more of those hits will wound (statistics) T4 infantry with better than 4+ armor. At 4+ armor and T4, it is a statistical dead heat for wounds, just have to see who does more hits. 5+ or worse armor, razordons are clearly favored for wounding purposes. Daemons of Chaos anyone?
For the panic issue, while rerolling on Ld9 makes panic unlikely, it still happens 1/36 times. You can't count on it happening just like you can't count on a dwarf blowing up his Anvil of Doom (though you get more than one shot per turn). Compared to the ~0 times it will happen for Razordons. If you are running two salamanders individually and on the flanks, and spewing fire across the enemy line, you could conceivably cause 2 panic checks with each of them. Typically a key unit failing a panic check and running the length of the line (since you should be firing from the flank) will be a non-trivial event, though not necessarily game-winning.
Also, when you factor in armies that can't reroll panic (which are most others), your odds skyrocket. Imagine this... you move your sallie so that he is parallel with the enemy line and you fly in some terradons (over US 5) and land them adjacent to the enemy unit at the other end of the line. If that salamander causes even one panic with its template, the enemy will flee the length of his line and be destroyed by terradons. Also, every enemy unit along the way will take a panic test and if they fail they will flee in the same direction and be auto-destroyed along with the first unit. Don't forget that any units within 6" of the destroyed units will test as well, assuming they haven't already taken a panic check that phase.
Typically panic checks can only be caused by things that can inflict mass casualties, like warmachines or big spellcasters. Other sources of panic include things being broken from combat etc. But in all of those other cases, the direction of the panic is a secondary concern because you don't want to risk your big warmachine being unprotected or putting your mage in a bad spot, and the broken enemies thing is pretty well based on your opponent's setup.
Then along come salamanders, which can target the direction of panic like aiming a rifle, due to their relatively low cost and ability to move 6" and fire. If you and your opponent follow the rules exactly, then you can draw a line from the center of your salamander model through the center of the panicked unit and that is your direction of panic. What matters is not which way the fire comes from, but where the center of that salamander is. So you don't even have to shoot the exact direction you want them to panic, just make sure you move the sallie to the correct location in the movement phase.
Then we have Terradons as well, for even more directed-panic goodness. We're not entirely sure yet what GW will rule on the direction of drop rocks panic, but I think it will be away from the final location of the terradons. This would mean just land the terradons on the opposite side of where you want to "aim" the panicked unit. Their options are not as many, because they must target weaker units which won't all that likely be still US5 when they do run away. But me personally, I'm thinking I will aim the crippled unit so that it flees in front of a big nasty unit and disrupt enemy movement that way. If it rallies and isn't fast cav, it is stuck there along with the enemy unit!
Apologies for the text-wall, hopefully I made the points I needed to without coming across as insulting.
Well, don't expect any panic there. They get to reroll all panic checks. Also, let's see whether str 3 -3 AS hits are more likely to kill chaos warriors than str 4 hits.
Assuming T4, chaos armor + shield
10 hits of each
10 str 3 -3 = 1/3 wound * 5/6 fail armor = 5/18 (10) = 2.78
10 str 4 -1 = 1/2 wound * 1/2 fail armor = 1/4 (10) = 2.5
So yes, while str 3 isn't great, salamanders are more likely to kill T4 heavy armored stuff (2.8% more per hit). An interesting follow up calculation though, is T4 with 4+ armor vs. shooting (most dwarves). Sallies and razordons are dead even. It's just a question of "do you want panic with that?" Reduce the armor to 5+, and razordons start to pull ahead by a good bit (3.33 to 4.17). However at that point, skink javelins and blowpipes start to look pretty good as well. Less armored units tend to get shredded by our mass poison attacks.
"Now, would Razors have been better in the same game? Maybe, maybe not. I believe they would have done a little better in one sense simply becuase they had the higher ST needed to wound."
Quite likely you thought sallies were supposed to be a whole lot better than razordons, but really when the hits are even the advantage is slight. In theory, a single salamander should be able to land more hits against a block than a razordon, maybe you had some bad artillery dice rolls.
The above math assumes equal hits, but consider that on average a single razordon will put out 5 shots and score 2.5 hits. Does a salamander template score more or less than 2.5 hits (average)? It's hard to tell, since it is based on your skill at lining up shots and how the artillery dice gods favor you. But even if the front edge of the template barely clips the front rank you'll probably get 4 partials converting to 2 hits. This is on a bad shot, not an average shot. I'm sure someone could figure out what you will average at different distances but I'm not going to bother, suffice it to say that my experience is you will usually land more than 2.5 hits with that template if it more than grazes a unit.
So in the final analysis, salamanders will typically score more hits (debateable), and more of those hits will wound (statistics) T4 infantry with better than 4+ armor. At 4+ armor and T4, it is a statistical dead heat for wounds, just have to see who does more hits. 5+ or worse armor, razordons are clearly favored for wounding purposes. Daemons of Chaos anyone?
For the panic issue, while rerolling on Ld9 makes panic unlikely, it still happens 1/36 times. You can't count on it happening just like you can't count on a dwarf blowing up his Anvil of Doom (though you get more than one shot per turn). Compared to the ~0 times it will happen for Razordons. If you are running two salamanders individually and on the flanks, and spewing fire across the enemy line, you could conceivably cause 2 panic checks with each of them. Typically a key unit failing a panic check and running the length of the line (since you should be firing from the flank) will be a non-trivial event, though not necessarily game-winning.
Also, when you factor in armies that can't reroll panic (which are most others), your odds skyrocket. Imagine this... you move your sallie so that he is parallel with the enemy line and you fly in some terradons (over US 5) and land them adjacent to the enemy unit at the other end of the line. If that salamander causes even one panic with its template, the enemy will flee the length of his line and be destroyed by terradons. Also, every enemy unit along the way will take a panic test and if they fail they will flee in the same direction and be auto-destroyed along with the first unit. Don't forget that any units within 6" of the destroyed units will test as well, assuming they haven't already taken a panic check that phase.
Typically panic checks can only be caused by things that can inflict mass casualties, like warmachines or big spellcasters. Other sources of panic include things being broken from combat etc. But in all of those other cases, the direction of the panic is a secondary concern because you don't want to risk your big warmachine being unprotected or putting your mage in a bad spot, and the broken enemies thing is pretty well based on your opponent's setup.
Then along come salamanders, which can target the direction of panic like aiming a rifle, due to their relatively low cost and ability to move 6" and fire. If you and your opponent follow the rules exactly, then you can draw a line from the center of your salamander model through the center of the panicked unit and that is your direction of panic. What matters is not which way the fire comes from, but where the center of that salamander is. So you don't even have to shoot the exact direction you want them to panic, just make sure you move the sallie to the correct location in the movement phase.
Then we have Terradons as well, for even more directed-panic goodness. We're not entirely sure yet what GW will rule on the direction of drop rocks panic, but I think it will be away from the final location of the terradons. This would mean just land the terradons on the opposite side of where you want to "aim" the panicked unit. Their options are not as many, because they must target weaker units which won't all that likely be still US5 when they do run away. But me personally, I'm thinking I will aim the crippled unit so that it flees in front of a big nasty unit and disrupt enemy movement that way. If it rallies and isn't fast cav, it is stuck there along with the enemy unit!
Apologies for the text-wall, hopefully I made the points I needed to without coming across as insulting.
