8th Ed. Rats! A Lizardmen vs Skaven tactica for WHFB 8th

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I would still argue the point that for a single model, turning on the spot doesn't count as movement.

Or, since you couldn't leave any models even slightly in front of him as he could then declare a charge, he could move forwards, pivot (as a single model can rotate as many times as it likes during movement) and then move around the skinks.

@Scalenex ? @NIGHTBRINGER ?

Do you concur?

Strict RAW interpretation of the rules does allow for railroading as described. It's not something I would ever implement myself.

It isn't an issue of movement, but rather an issue of coming within 1" of an enemy unit (outside of CC or as part of a charging move). An ordinary unit could easily move forward and pivot as you described, but a model with Random Movement cannot... they always move in a straight line.

An HPA would typically declare a direction of movement, pivot and move 3d6" in that direction... if it comes into contact with an enemy it counts as charging (which allows it to charge units outside of its line of sight and front arc). However, if there is a model an inch away from it on its flank, then even the smallest amount of pivoting would bring the corner of its base inside of 1", which is disallowed by the rules.

I view it to be a dirty tactic and gamey. It may be allowed by RAW, but as a subscriber to RAI, I would never play it that way. Many tournaments and gaming groups adopted something called a "virtual pivot" that allows for a model to break the 1" move during a pivot, thereby preventing this railroading tactic.

 

[airjamy]

Strict RAW interpretation of the rules does allow for railroading as described. It's not something I would ever implement myself.

It isn't an issue of movement, but rather an issue of coming within 1" of an enemy unit (outside of CC or as part of a charging move). An ordinary unit could easily move forward and pivot as you described, but a model with Random Movement cannot... they always move in a straight line.

An HPA would typically declare a direction of movement, pivot and move 3d6" in that direction... if it comes into contact with an enemy it counts as charging (which allows it to charge units outside of its line of sight and front arc). However, if there is a model an inch away from it on its flank, then even the smallest amount of pivoting would bring the corner of its base inside of 1", which is disallowed by the rules.

I view it to be a dirty tactic and gamey. It may be allowed by RAW, but as a subscriber to RAI, I would never play it that way. Many tournaments and gaming groups adopted something called a "virtual pivot" that allows for a model to break the 1" move during a pivot, thereby preventing this railroading tactic.

This seems like a reasonable solution. I would do it in a tournament match, but this virtual pivot seems like a good idea..

 

[Neersh]

Good write-up!

As a long-time skaven player I do find OP's thoughts on grey seers, D13 and plague censer bearers a bit odd though.
Let it be known that I'm not a tournament player by any means, usually me and my opponents' armies are trying new things and gaming pretty casually, but still hell-bent on winning.

I basically never field a grey seer, because it's high cost and the volatile nature of any skaven unit you could put the master wizard rat in hiding. Maybe in some 2,5k+ point games I might take one, usually with a screaming bell (which I think is a quite a huge waste of points, but offers adequate protection for the seer).
I much rather play two lvl2 warlock engineers, if for nothing else than to make sure that I still have a wizard left if one of them explodes, runs away, or otherwise becomes "indisposed".
Due to this, I naturally almost never toy with the D13, as it's for grey seers only. Still, I think the casting value is too high compared to the other lores' megaspells. Sure, the effect is superb, but it's really hard to get it cast. And if I'm going to cast it with double sixes, I really, really don't want my expensive grey seer (and their unit, which is probably the biggest / most expensive I have on the table) to get whammed by the miscast.

Plague censer bearers (PCB) on the other hand is something which I field almost to any army (including those smaller 1-1,5k point ones). Why? Because they are awesome. They do a lot of things that Skaven units in general don't - they skirmish, they hit hard (at least on the first round of combat), they can do with high-armor targets (of the T3-4 variant). Sure, they are expensive, but in my opinion justly so. I usually take a mob of 5-8 of these, and send them down one flank to do whatever they do. Usually my opponent has to react somehow, which is good in my books.
Although in the context of lizardmen, PCB's are not that brilliant, because their main targets (saurus variants) all have T4 or better.

Different generals having different "default approaches" to building their armies is just a good sign, of course. But it's fun to hear (read) about such differing experiences.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

Great writeup, love the use of Slaves for points!

Re Rag Ogres, I wonder if they could be fixed by not only giving them a save, but allowing them to be taken like Kroxigors within Clanrats. HOWEVER then add in some Orc and Goblin style rules where they can bezerk and hurt said Clanrats. Perhaps rolls of a 1 hit Clanrats instead as they thrash around and attack? As a flavourful "tax" on effectively giving them ablative wounds.

 

[airjamy]

Good write-up!

As a long-time skaven player I do find OP's thoughts on grey seers, D13 and plague censer bearers a bit odd though.
Let it be known that I'm not a tournament player by any means, usually me and my opponents' armies are trying new things and gaming pretty casually, but still hell-bent on winning.

I basically never field a grey seer, because it's high cost and the volatile nature of any skaven unit you could put the master wizard rat in hiding. Maybe in some 2,5k+ point games I might take one, usually with a screaming bell (which I think is a quite a huge waste of points, but offers adequate protection for the seer).
I much rather play two lvl2 warlock engineers, if for nothing else than to make sure that I still have a wizard left if one of them explodes, runs away, or otherwise becomes "indisposed".
Due to this, I naturally almost never toy with the D13, as it's for grey seers only. Still, I think the casting value is too high compared to the other lores' megaspells. Sure, the effect is superb, but it's really hard to get it cast. And if I'm going to cast it with double sixes, I really, really don't want my expensive grey seer (and their unit, which is probably the biggest / most expensive I have on the table) to get whammed by the miscast.

Plague censer bearers (PCB) on the other hand is something which I field almost to any army (including those smaller 1-1,5k point ones). Why? Because they are awesome. They do a lot of things that Skaven units in general don't - they skirmish, they hit hard (at least on the first round of combat), they can do with high-armor targets (of the T3-4 variant). Sure, they are expensive, but in my opinion justly so. I usually take a mob of 5-8 of these, and send them down one flank to do whatever they do. Usually my opponent has to react somehow, which is good in my books.
Although in the context of lizardmen, PCB's are not that brilliant, because their main targets (saurus variants) all have T4 or better.

Different generals having different "default approaches" to building their armies is just a good sign, of course. But it's fun to hear (read) about such differing experiences.

Thanks for your reaction! I do have to say that i have to insist that Grey Seers are really very strong. They were around the cheapest lvl4 wizards in the game, with a strong unique lore, and they get bonus power dice for free. In my opinion, lvl 4 wizards are mandatory in any game above 1K, as the +4 to cast and dispel are great boons. The extra spells are also really good, they also give you consistency in getting the spells you want. Having a 4+ to cast on your Skitterleap tricks was also just strong. I think that with a Screaming Bell they get a bit expensive and exposed indeed, which is why in most tournament games I played back in the game people hid them on foot in a unit of slaves, which was very annoying to deal with. Grey Seers also thus do not need to be in expensive units if you ask me, if you miscast D13 in a unit of slaves, you are generally totally fine with it, and you are trading up immensely if you target an enemy unit of heavy infantry and ever get an Irresistible Force or a natural roll of 25.

Plague Censor Bearers being stronger than I experienced back in the day I do see, especially in smaller games. Whenever i saw them, i used to shoot Javelins at them, which was pretty good, so i don't really think they are good into Lizardmen (which is what this guide is about). I also think that the job you describe for them, that being to skirmish, is better done by slaves if you have 300 slaves. Yes i know slaves are not skirmishers, but if you field like 300 of them, they do a great job of what skirmishers generally do, which is to control the board. Rat darts are the best redirectors in Skaven i think, so i don't think they get the nod on that either. 1 X is a bit low I guess, as they are an ok unit in general (i bet they are great against High Elves for example), but as i see no real role for them in the Lizardmen-Skaven matchup, I stand by a X-XX rating.

 

[airjamy]

Great writeup, love the use of Slaves for points!

Re Rag Ogres, I wonder if they could be fixed by not only giving them a save, but allowing them to be taken like Kroxigors within Clanrats. HOWEVER then add in some Orc and Goblin style rules where they can bezerk and hurt said Clanrats. Perhaps rolls of a 1 hit Clanrats instead as they thrash around and attack? As a flavourful "tax" on effectively giving them ablative wounds.

Sounds cool and flavorful! They sure as hell needed something to make them viable. Personally i would go for something like Regeneration and just give them a save of sorts, but putting them in units like Kroxigor sounds cool as well. I think if there ever was a new Skaven army book back in the day they would have been buffed quite a bit, seeing how Monstrous Infantry was all the rage in the End Time meta.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Sounds cool and flavorful! They sure as hell needed something to make them viable. Personally i would go for something like Regeneration and just give them a save of sorts, but putting them in units like Kroxigor sounds cool as well. I think if there ever was a new Skaven army book back in the day they would have been buffed quite a bit, seeing how Monstrous Infantry was all the rage in the End Time meta.

To be honest Rat Ogres are one of the better Monstrous Infantry units to start with, pretty cheap at 40 points per model, high Initiative for Monstrous Infantry, Strength 5 and 4 attacks each while Frenzy is in play. Being able to deploy them in Clanrat units looks fun, but they already have a unique mechanic with being herded into battle by Packmasters, there's no need to change something which works perfectly well as-is. Regeneration could make sense, but that would make them too similar to Trolls.

 

[airjamy]

To be honest Rat Ogres are one of the better Monstrous Infantry units to start with, pretty cheap at 40 points per model, high Initiative for Monstrous Infantry, Strength 5 and 4 attacks each while Frenzy is in play. Being able to deploy them in Clanrat units looks fun, but they already have a unique mechanic with being herded into battle by Packmasters, there's no need to change something which works perfectly well as-is. Regeneration could make sense, but that would make them too similar to Trolls.

I don't know man, they do not have saves though! They die so hard to skink javelins, magic missiles, any kind of shooting really. They are also quite slow, so the shooting will damage them. I have never found them threatening in any way.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I don't know man, they do not have saves though! They die so hard to skink javelins, magic missiles, any kind of shooting really. They are also quite slow, so the shooting will damage them. I have never found them threatening in any way.

But they make up for that with being dangerous in close combat - high Initiative, Monstrous support, Frenzy, low points cost for MI allowing for greater numbers and Strength 5 all contribute to make a fearsome unit. Shooting is one of the few counters against them alongside ASF units and Elf Great Weapon troops, and a canny Skaven player can use cover and charge enemy missile units to protect his Rat Ogre unit(s) on the way to combat to ensure they can bring their full strength to bear.

 

[airjamy]

But they make up for that with being dangerous in close combat - high Initiative, Monstrous support, Frenzy, low points cost for MI allowing for greater numbers and Strength 5 all contribute to make a fearsome unit. Shooting is one of the few counters against them alongside ASF units and Elf Great Weapon troops, and a canny Skaven player can use cover and charge enemy missile units to protect his Rat Ogre unit(s) on the way to combat to ensure they can bring their full strength to bear.

I can see how they hit hard in CC, but i really do not see how they will get there. What also adds to this is that there are not that many great targets for shooting against Skaven. Often when i saw people running hordes of Rat Ogres, they did not have the Hellpits or Doomwheels that are generally the better hammer for the army. Shooting javelins at slaves or clanrats is just a bad thing to do, even shooting Stormvermin with javelins feels bad, so i feel that they were the only really good target for my shooting whenever i faced them. I see how they would be quite strong against something like Vampire Counts as you can really rely on them getting them into close combat in that, but against us, that is just not really going to happen. I also do not think you can run both multiple Doomwheels/Hellpits AND a big unit of Ratogres, as you will then not have enough slaves. Some characters support is also good in Skaven if you ask me, Grey Seer, multiple tricksy Warlock Engineers, a BSB and Warlord or Fellblade Warlord were really quite common.

Long story short, if you compare them to Hellpits and Doomwheels, which you should in this book i think as they would work as a hammer, they fall woefully short, and i think my rating is adequate.

 

[shattershell]

@airjamy I would really like to complement you for a thorough and useful article. This will be very useful for me, as in my little resurgent 8th edition community, one of the main guys has an enormous Skaven force. I really admire him for fully painting everything, it's an impressive army mostly composed of combat rat blocks!

Despite collecting my lizards alongside him, I've only played up to 1000 points against him as we grew our lists. I'll have to keep rereading this thread before our inevitable 2400 point clash!!

 

[airjamy]

@airjamy I would really like to complement you for a thorough and useful article. This will be very useful for me, as in my little resurgent 8th edition community, one of the main guys has an enormous Skaven force. I really admire him for fully painting everything, it's an impressive army mostly composed of combat rat blocks!

Despite collecting my lizards alongside him, I've only played up to 1000 points against him as we grew our lists. I'll have to keep rereading this thread before our inevitable 2400 point clash!!

Thanks for reaching out, nice to know that there are still some 8th communities alive and kicking! Also if you would want any input on your list or something, i'd be happy to help .

 

[Quinn]

Thanks for your reaction! I do have to say that i have to insist that Grey Seers are really very strong. They were around the cheapest lvl4 wizards in the game, with a strong unique lore, and they get bonus power dice for free. In my opinion, lvl 4 wizards are mandatory in any game above 1K, as the +4 to cast and dispel are great boons. The extra spells are also really good, they also give you consistency in getting the spells you want. Having a 4+ to cast on your Skitterleap tricks was also just strong. I think that with a Screaming Bell they get a bit expensive and exposed indeed, which is why in most tournament games I played back in the game people hid them on foot in a unit of slaves, which was very annoying to deal with. Grey Seers also thus do not need to be in expensive units if you ask me, if you miscast D13 in a unit of slaves, you are generally totally fine with it, and you are trading up immensely if you target an enemy unit of heavy infantry and ever get an Irresistible Force or a natural roll of 25.

Plague Censor Bearers being stronger than I experienced back in the day I do see, especially in smaller games. Whenever i saw them, i used to shoot Javelins at them, which was pretty good, so i don't really think they are good into Lizardmen (which is what this guide is about). I also think that the job you describe for them, that being to skirmish, is better done by slaves if you have 300 slaves. Yes i know slaves are not skirmishers, but if you field like 300 of them, they do a great job of what skirmishers generally do, which is to control the board. Rat darts are the best redirectors in Skaven i think, so i don't think they get the nod on that either. 1 X is a bit low I guess, as they are an ok unit in general (i bet they are great against High Elves for example), but as i see no real role for them in the Lizardmen-Skaven matchup, I stand by a X-XX rating.

I don't get why you would take 200-300 slaves, yeah I get they ate cheap, but really? 300? Even in a 2500pt game that is most of your core and stormvermin ate a much better use of the cover tax. One of the people I played with recently took a unit of Queeks stormvermin with about 60 models, skavenbrew and the general bsb, and odlf course Queek. It was essentially invincible, and there are many builds like it, this whole unit could be replaced by 300 slaves, which will never do any damage and will only ever act as a anvil for the hammers. There is such a thing as too much chaff (even with skaven).