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8th Ed. Rant on HE and the damn phoenix

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archangelvk

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I dont know about you guys, but I play High Elves a lot in my gaming group and I think out of all the armies out there right now they have almost NO weaknesses and almost every single strength.


The standard lists I see between players always have a ton of archers or silver helms as their core, a fat unit of 20-25 phoenix guards AND white lions, accompanied by 2 frost phoenix.

The Characters range from 2 lords and 2 lvl 2's to an archmage and lord with a BSB.

Our poisoned Shooting doesnt really work against White Lions, Silver helms or Phoenix guards. Each one of my opponents fighting blocks are supported by a frost phoenix which lowers our S by 1 in cc which makes us hit that much weaker. They can dominate magic with that dreaded book of hoeth being able to cast spells like HoG with one bloody dice. They fight in four freggin ranks and when their mage casts spells they get a +1 Ward and get +1 to cast?

are you freaking kidding me?

I think the frost phoenix is way to under cost. Compared to what our stegadons can do id take a frost phoenix any day. That flying bastard should be at least 300 pts for what it can do. The ASL is not a big deal for us but when I play Chaos it sucks.

Are you guys having the same problem when playing HE?

Ive read the HE tactica on this site against HE but to be honest, saying "just shoot the phoenix with skinks" is A LOT easier than actually doing it.

If you consider a unit of 10 blowpipes shooting 20 shots at it. Lets just SAY you need 6's to hit. thats only 4 poisoned max. Which he then gets a 5+ AS then a 5+ ward.

Hitting anything in their army is almost always a 4+ and wounding a phoenix is nearly always damn well 6's.

Yah we can cast Hog ourselves or go with lore of light and cast buff spells but HE have an easier time dispelling our spells with the book.

Someone in GW must REALLY love the damn army.

Oh that feels much better.
 
As one who plays (but not against) both High Elves and Lizardmen, I agree that the Frost Phoenix is under priced. That sucker has an amazing set of abilities and saves, all things considered. I find it somewhat ironic that the Lizardmen community has been wishing for a Coatl (feathered serpent) for so long, but didn't get it, but the High Elves got what nearly amounts to a feathered Dragon in the Frost Phoenix.
 
Its not quite fair to say that High elves have no weaknesses, but they are one of the more competitive books out the at the moment. Their main weakness is that they pay a lot of points for their models and they are generally not that tough, in most situations you should out number a high elf force of a comparable points level.

The frost Phoenix is probably the most undercosted 8th edition monster out there, when the OP monsters from 7th (hell pit and hydra) recieve their well deserved nerf they will be top of the pile.

Your skink shooting should be targeting the Phoenixes, not the infantry or cavalry, they are the lynch-pin of the force, if they go down before the elves get into CC your Saurus should be able to outlast them.

I favour a wandering delib Slann for buffs/debuffs that can swing combat in our favour, spells like miasma and wild form are key to this, when your Saurus are S&T 5 and the elves are reduced to S1 it doesn't matter how many rerolls to hit they get you will still pwn them.

Salamanders are quite handy for taking on elf infantry, thou just be mindful that one unit will almost certainly be rocking around with the banner of the world dragon.
 
the biggest weakness T3 sallies can shred whole units with the S4 flame burp and we have got loads of fast moving chaff he cant shoot all of it

plus we got high magic too and elves will really feel the pain of 4D6 S4 shots or the whole unit bursting in to flame

also the solar engine is your friend 2D6 S5 hit will make a mess of any unit the elves have
 
Well first off instead of ranting, you should take a moment and pause. Think about what you are doing, and why it is not working, change your tactics and adapt.

First why are you targeting his blocks with your skirmishers, that is just a waste of Delicious poison attacks. Skinks excel in is taking down monsters, or re-directing and just being a pain. Instead try using Salamanders flame template at S4, and causing a panic test. Perfect for ranked up and elite infantry. Another option is to use the Bastildons Solar engine, level 3 bound spell that has a chance to knock out a phoenix.

We have counters to the book of hoeth. We have a discipline that allows us to re-roll a failed dispel attempt, top it off with two dispel scrolls and we are golden. The thing you have to understand with the magically inclined armies is, we are not going to shut out there magic phase. They are going to get spells off, the trick is to try and mitigate the damage. Work on the spells you know you don't want to go off, and forget about the rest.

For there blocks of troops remember elves can hit hard, but they die easily. Avoid buffed ward saved units, or strive to counter spells there to mitigate the ward save bonus.

I hope this helps. Don't get discouraged, and go give those pricy fairy elves hell!
 
I play against High Elves a lot, so I'm not just theoryhammering, here.

The reason the phoenix is okay is because every single High Elf on the field is toughness 3. The core troops, the elite troops, the heroes, the lords, they're all toughness 3. Think about that for a minute. Our core are T4, and we still get +1T on characters. High Elves are, each and every one, easy to wound.

The Frostheart covers for that weakness in a fairly obvious way -- by reducing strength. An army of Saurus, etc. would be almost invincible with an ability like that, since we're relatively hard to wound already. But against T3, in the current landscape, every army is going to have plenty of options for wounding on 3+ or even 2+. The ability to mitigate that a little bit with a phoenix isn't really a disaster. It's a lot better than it feels; in combat the best way to deal with it is not to let it get under your skin.

Now, dealing with the phoenix itself can be obnoxious due to the 5+/5++, but it's not by any means impossible. 20 poison shots hitting on 6's have a 78% chance of doing at least 1 wound, and a 44% chance of doing at least 2. Get a wound or two on it en passant and it will be a lot easier to deal with in combat.

Other than that, it's not that killy for its cost, and it's perfectly possible to run it off (think of it like a Stegadon without the impact hits or the Stubborn). Big infantry blocks will have to worry about thunderstomps, but even then it's possible to win combat with ranks and a standard. If you have to actually kill it, we have the tools; poison and a little magic will eventually knock it off the board.

If there are two, kind of the same logic applies; just focus your fire.

I fought a 4-frostheart list once (two in rare, hero mount, special character) and bastilodons+WD helped me out a lot, in combination with a few saurus blocks and some stegadons. Basically you kill them when convenient, then you just mentally subtract one from your profile strength and move on.

At the end of the day, HE infantry lines just aren't that scary -- Phoenix Guard aren't killy enough for their cost and can (and will) break and run when met with serious resistance, and White Lions are paper-thin in combat (T3 5+). Pin and flank, and they'll die or run. Frosthearts don't fundamentally change how that works -- they just save a few wounds.
 
I dont really think im playing it all wrong.

First off im going to say that I DO NOT WANT to tailor my list to kill High Elves. Im not that kind of player. I enjoy making all comers list and if I face a High Elf then so be it.

I generally run a fat block of spear saurus warriors (32 strong) 40 skins 22 temple guards, bastiladon, 2 units of 3 terradons, A.Stegadon, 2 Sallies a slaan with all the goodies and a Saurus hero on a cold one


So as I stated before., what my opponents generally have 2 elite fighting blocks of Phoenix Guards and White Lions. 20-25 strong each. Not one high elf player runs swordmasters.

I DO NOT target the infantry blocks with poisoned shooting. Only my sallies shoot the infantry blocks. My 40 shots go towards the phoenix. But my opponents arent idiots. They know that skinks can shoot them out of the sky so they try to minimize the number of shots they will take before their army comes in.

True, White lions are made out of paper but when youre facing 19 S6 attacks (the players here rank those bastards by 6 and run a champion), thats easily 13 hits with 11ish wounds on a temple guard unit. Thats HALF of my unit... dead

The Phoenix guards I rarely shoot with sallies as well since they have their 4+ save and dont have a lot of kill power but their ability to tank a unit until a phoenix gets in really hurts. Then you got a mage that is able to increase their ward save to 3+.

Then there are also the 15 ish silver helms that I need to deal with thats loaded with a lord who all re-roll to hit. This is the least of my worries.

I generally dont load up all my skinks in one area. Depending on where the phoenix goes I try to match up 2 blocks of 10 for each phoenix. But it doesnt always work. Their fly ability makes them able to get out of range of the skinks range and go support something else. I try to bait with the terradons but the archers generally try to take them down asap.

Youve noticed that I left magic out of here. Im assuming that sinvce both sides have such strong defensive magical items that we will leave it out to make the conversation more simple. Magic is too unpredictable since you can say oh what if you roll bad on winds of magic .. etc etc etc
 
If 11 TG casualties are dropping half your unit, the first thing I'd say is that you need a bigger unit. You beat High Elves by forcing them to grind with you - enforce the fact that your troops cost less than his once support is taken into account and drag him down with bulk. As for the Phoenix... mass poisoned shooting takes care of it rather well. The list you're putting up looks poorly suited to dealing with fliers in general, not just High Elves. I'd recommend a hefty infusion of bulk into that Temple Guard unit and some Poisoned Skirmishers.
 
I thought white lions only had one attack each. Do they have two attacks now?
 
No, they don't have 2 atx, but all High Elves can fight from the third rank...or the forth rank with spears.
 
I've been doing some math, and sure enough the best answers to the Phoenix appear to be:

- Large number of poison shots
- Block of Kroxigor

A unit of 6 Kroxigor (2x3) with a champion do 20.5 attacks. The phoenix will do 4 S6 attacks, resulting in 4*(4/6)*(5/6) = 2.22 wounds. So it probably won't kill one with its base attacks, and it doesn't get stomps against them. The krox, on the strike back, do 20.5*(3/6)*(3/6)*(4/6) = 3.4 wounds. So, they will likely win combat the first round, and will probably kill it from wounds after 2 rounds of combat. Oddly, the krox seem to be better against it than any other unit, even an Oldblood on a Carnosaur.

Similarly, a group of 20 skink skirmishers with blowpipes do 40 poison shots = 3 wounds. The danger here is they're a lot more susceptible to terror than the krox are.
 
Try using units of 3-4 rippas they are easy to fly up a flank use them to mash in to the flanks or rear of units put toad marker on his silverhelms the if you hit them Inthe flank they'll only get 1-2 max3 attacks back they will make mince meat of them with killing blow
4-6 S4 ap attacks with killing blow each 4 in a unit would be 16-24 will smash any cavblock(also rerolling to hit in every round)

The krox idea to sort the phoenix problem can work
 
Thanks for all your input. IM going to try the kroxigors but I just need to make sure they stay away from the block units such as the white lions, phoenix guards and a silver helm charge. Basically everything else in his army lol.

6 Kroxigors is a heafty 300 pts though. Where to find those points...

Also someone mentioned that I should enlarge my temple guard unit. I run a unit of 22 but to increase it to 30 is an extra 112 pts. Thats a lot of points to free up for just an extra round of combat
 
Ripperdactyls will be really, really good against Silver Helms. Anti-heavy cavalry is practically the only thing that they were designed for. 3 of them can comfortably go into a unit of 5 in the front and cut through them like cake. Against larger units, you either need to go in the flank or bring more Ripperdactyls. Either way, they're cheap enough to comfortably fit two units of three in without worrying too much about tailoring your list, as they'll do reasonably well against most non-Warriors of Chaos opponents. Consider the champion upgrade to challenge out the hero.

Additionally, try an Oldblood with the Carpet and hunt down the Frost Phoenix. He can either pack Armour of Destiny and a Great Weapon (for S6 vT6), or Dawn Stone/Enchanted Shield/Sword of Might (for S5 v T6). It'll cost your Slann a bit, but depending on the points values it might allow you more range and flexibility than a Scar-Vet on a Cold One.

And finally... zap it with a Blastidon or high strength Burning Gaze. The good thing with old Blasty, is that you can risk 6-dicing it to guarantee getting it off, without having to suffer a miscast result.

As for the Temple Guard, I heartily recommend 24-26 deployed in horde ^^.
 
GCPD said:
Anti-heavy cavalry is practically the only thing that they were designed for. 3 of them can comfortably go into a unit of 5 in the front and cut through them like cake.
Click to expand...


ahm..no? :P

Had a unit charge a block of 16 HE archers....the CORE troops.
4 rippers died before they got to do anything...anything at all...the other didnt even lay a wound.


They go in the flank, ALWAYS :P
 
Charging into the front is a bad idea. The elves hit on 3's with re-rolls and wound on 4's, you save on 4's. The horses strike before the rippers, hitting you on 3's and wounding on 4's, you save on 4's.
Odds are, you lose a ripper before he swings.
The surviving 2 don't do enough damage (unless you put the bloat toad on a unit of 5 cav for some reason).
In the flank, they crush the cav.

With WS2 and T3 (that's elite for skink), Ripperdactyles get murdered by anything with a high volume of attacks.

Again, this is a match up where a skink chief does better.
Lone chief with 2+ save on ripper (light armor, enchanted shield, spear; 87 points).
Chief averages 1.25 wounds, silver helms average ~0.3 wounds. A single kill is enough to strip steadfast.
 
Ack, I had forgotten about the horses. And I had counted on using the Bloat Toad. Flanks it is!

Phatmotha-phucka said:
GCPD said:
Anti-heavy cavalry is practically the only thing that they were designed for. 3 of them can comfortably go into a unit of 5 in the front and cut through them like cake.
Click to expand...


ahm..no? :P

Had a unit charge a block of 16 HE archers....the CORE troops.
4 rippers died before they got to do anything...anything at all...the other didnt even lay a wound.


They go in the flank, ALWAYS :P
Click to expand...

So you point out that Rippers are bad at killing cavalry... by referencing them doing badly against a unit of infantry (with stand and shoot charge reaction infantry, at that)? :/
 
RipperDerek said:
Why don't you post your full list?
Click to expand...


Great discussions going on here.

SO for my list I got a

Slann (lore of light) + Reservoir + Becalming + Stone _ Convergence + channeling staff + banner of eternal flame

Lvl 2 skink priest + scroll

Sar vet + Armour of destin on cold one with GW

31 sarurs warriors
4 units of 10 skinks
1 bastiladon
6 chameleon skinks
23 temple guards (includes champion)
4 terradons
1 Ancient stegadon
2 salamanders (deployed as singles)

Remember I dont want to tailor my list against High Elves. I just find it really hard to bring it down.

Since one of the High Elf units generally run that retarded banner of eternal flame (usually its the white lions) I cant go into combat with them and need to fight them with saurus warriors as anything i send at it will die.

Im thinking about the Terradons after some of you mentioned how great it is. Ive noticed that the chameleon skinks havent really dont much for me the past 4 games ive played (mind you ive only played against HIgh elves, Skaven and orcs.)

If I were to add kroxigors in there ... 6 of them.. where would I free up 300 pts?
 
So adding all that up, I came out to 2402 points. (I assume this is a 2500pt list, and there is a standard and musician for both infantry blocks).

Code: 
Slann     
Priest      
Scar Vet    
Saurus     
Skinks      
Temple      
Terradons   
Steg	     
Salama      
Bastilladon

Here are some random comments with my opinions, though bear in mind I don't claim to be an expert, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt:

- Stegadon upgrades are expensive and in my opinion not that good. If you're paying for an engine of the gods and other upgrades, my advice is not to.
- 6 is a strange number of chameleons to me. If you want to kill cannons with them, at least 9 is the magic number, as it averages 3 poison shots (which kills all the crew on an average roll).
- Not sure that lvl2 upgrade on skink priest really matters. His job is mostly just to cast Wildform on the infantry
blocks, and carry a dispel scroll, right?
- Flaming banner doesn't seem terribly useful for TG. Standard of Discipline is only 5 points more and makes them all but unbreakable.
- Personally, I am not a fan of terradons. They usually die in combat before they get to attack due to low initiative and squishy profile, and I think Chameleon skinks are better war machine hunters. Also, Salamanders and Bastilladons are better at lighting things that need it on fire.

Hope that gives you some ideas. Other random thoughts - Amber Spear also seems good at killing the Phoenix, and your cowboy is tough enough to tie it up for several turns, especially if he can get some support from any magical buffs or heals.
 
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