8th Ed. Ramblings on unit size...

[Captain Krox]

Hey folks,

So far my journey into the world of Lizardmen and Lustria has been great fun. Coming 40K, and building my own Space Marine Chapter, I've been surprised (pleasantly) by the challenges Lizardmen bring. Building the models, painting (way more detail than I expected)and coming up with what to get next are always fun and exciting.

And then comes building lists and playing games. I have no clue how to build a Lizardmen list, or plan an army type, etc. Heck I don't even know what a good unit size is. In 40K, I'm at the point where I've memorized my units, charaters and points costs. I know the synergies of my units, and can build so many army types and U know I'll get there eventually with my Lizards, but man it's frustrating.

So what am I asking for? Keep reading (if you aren't bored yet)

This is what I own so far as models:

24 Skinks with Javelin and Shield
9 Temple Guard
17 Saurus Warriors with Hand Weapon and Shield
1 Saurus Champion
1 Saurus Musican
1 Sauraus Standard Bearer
1 Ancient Stegadon with the 2 Blowpipes
1 Scar Vet made from extra Temple Guard bits
1 Skink Priest made from extra bits from the Skinks in the stegadon kit
8 Cold one Cavalry
10 Chameleon Skinks made from the Skinks in the Batallion Box

I have 20 more Suarus coming in next week, as well as 24 Skinks.

The main question in how large can/should my units be? is 20 Saurus a good size uint for most games? or is 30 better? What about Skinks? I have no Skirmishers yet and I've heard nothing but bad things about 'em. Should I build 24 more with Spears and Shields?

I'll have more units coming in the future as I get more experience with WFB rules and also as more Finecast comes available: Krox and Sallies hopefully.... also will get a Slann when they are in resin too.

anyway, I have rambled on too long. Let me know your opinions and experiences.

thanks!

 

[n810]

Bad News.... About skirmishing skinks ???

First I have heard about it, they are one of our better units.

 

[Skinklord]

I like my blocks quite large. I dont want my enemy to get steadfast easy and I prefer to have it myself.
A block of 24 saurus is a small block for me, I dont use that small blocks very much. I would not recomend going for spears in a 24 man block. The extra attack from spears will be lost quite fast.
The normal size for my blocks are 30 (5 wide, 6 deep) man with hand weapon/shield. I guess spears would work with this number but I still prefer the parry just because im lucky and save a lot of wounds this way.

For skinks I would recomend 24 skinks with 3 krox. I always bring a block of this size and it never lets me down. Its fast, hits hard and steadfast for quite some time if you use it against the right stuff.
Without krox I dont see much use of the cohort skink, they are far better as skirmishers then.

 

[Captain Krox]

I'm confused.

Are Skirmishers the ones with blowpipes and hand weapons? or do they have the javelins? I read on this very board that Skinks with blowpipes are pretty much useless.

Enlighten me!? What am I missing?

 

[Shaynoor]

The thing is; Skinks have the possibillity to upgrade from skirmishers w. blowpipes, to skirmishers w. javelins and shield for just 1 pt extra per skink. Gives you shield and alle the benefits and the abillity to stand and shoot as charge reaction, because of the "quick to fire" rule. And with BS3 blowpipe; you would normally have -1 from move and fire, -1 for long distance and -1 for double tapping. Which require you to wound on 7+ and therefore losing the "poison auto wound" special rule.
Javs will do on 6+ because there is no double tapping.

 

[Skinklord]

Skink skirmishers can be used with blowpipe or jav/shield and they are not bad at all. Chamelions are obviously better but also more expensive.
for 7p (8 with jav) you get a really good skirmisher thanks to the poison. They might not kill a lot of stuff but they can make it harder for the enemy to charge and they are not very easy to kill thanks to the skirmisher rule.
You dont have to double tap with the blowpipes if you dont want to so even with BS3 you can hit on 6, javelins will hit on 5s most of the time as they only get penaly for long range.
Its a cheap unit the enemy have to deal with and I like it for deployment, you can start with 10 skirmishers and see what the other player is doing and you will be able to have more control over the deployment witch is a very important part of the game.
A unit size of 10 is best imo, then its easy to move them around and they dont cost a lot of points.

 

[BEEGfrog]

Skirmishing blowpipes are great against standard high toughness low armour models. They are vulnerable in combat so you have to work out how you are going to move with them to maximise their use. They need to get into 6" to maximise effectiveness and double shot with poison.

Skirmishing javs can stand up to weak opposition in combat or sometimes delay medium quality opposition for a turn. They can stand off further than peashooters because they don't have double shot to worry about.

Skirmishers are too good for the enemy to ignore so you can use them to divert the enemies plans, they aren't the automatic choice they were in the previous editions as they cannot scout but they are still good value.

 

[Leokill27]

you would normally have -1 from move and fire, -1 for long distance and -1 for double tapping. Which require you to wound on 7+ and therefore losing the "poison auto wound" special rule.
Javs will do on 6+ because there is no double tapping.

Skirmishers dont take a move penalty for shooting, under skirmisher rules in the rulebook

so 6's which are poisoned

I like blowpips, typically I send skinks against anything tough, from hellpits and doomwheels to necrosphinxs and tomb scorps, and 20 shots from a unit of 10 instead of 10 is a huge win.

Although a 6+ armor and parry is pretty good

It depends on your playstyle for skinks really

 

[Mitch311]

Skirmishers dont take a move penalty for shooting, under skirmisher rules in the rulebook

so 6's which are poisoned

I like blowpips, typically I send skinks against anything tough, from hellpits and doomwheels to necrosphinxs and tomb scorps, and 20 shots from a unit of 10 instead of 10 is a huge win.

Although a 6+ armor and parry is pretty good

It depends on your playstyle for skinks really

Skirmishers are allowed to move and shoot regardless of wep but they still suffer -1 to hit. Quick to fire weeps on the other hand do not suffer -1 to hit from moving. So blowies still suffer -1 to hit from moving and shooting but javs don't. Also jav and shield do not get a parry save. Only HW/ Shield get parry. Jav is not Hw.

Sorry

 

[Wolf]

Skirmishers dont take a move penalty for shooting, under skirmisher rules in the rulebook

so 6's which are poisoned

I like blowpips, typically I send skinks against anything tough, from hellpits and doomwheels to necrosphinxs and tomb scorps, and 20 shots from a unit of 10 instead of 10 is a huge win.

Although a 6+ armor and parry is pretty good

It depends on your playstyle for skinks really

Skirmishers are allowed to move and shoot regardless of wep but they still suffer -1 to hit. Quick to fire weeps on the other hand do not suffer -1 to hit from moving. So blowies still suffer -1 to hit from moving and shooting but javs don't. Also jav and shield do not get a parry save. Only HW/ Shield get parry. Jav is not Hw.

Sorry

Every model is assumed to have a hand weapon with which it fights in close combat. The javelin is the missile weapon the Skinks use, check your army list, it says Skirmisher Skinks are equipped with a blowpipe and a hand weapon and they have the option to exchange the blowpipe for a javelin. So if you decide to give them the javelin and shield then they will get the 6+ parry save when applicable

Back on topic, I believe Skirmisher Skinks to be one of the best choices we have available to us. Worst case scenario you'll be facing an army in which their shooting is practically useless, but that doesn't mean they are useless, far from it! They can be used as redirectors, skirmishes screens or just plain annoyance. Don't underestimate the value of a unit sitting behind enemy lines, it really tends to get on peoples nerves. If they don't attribute some part of their army to deal with them then just keep taking those pot shots.

I'd love to keep rambling on about these guys, and I will at some later point, but I've got exams to take care of first. So I'm hitting the books again. My advice; get those new Skinks assembled with blowpipes!!

 

[Mitch311]

Well I'll be damned another reason to take jav/shield not that mine get into CC much.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Benny6Toes]

Back on topic, I believe Skirmisher Skinks to be one of the best choices we have available to us. Worst case scenario you'll be facing an army in which their shooting is practically useless, but that doesn't mean they are useless, far from it! They can be used as redirectors, skirmishes screens or just plain annoyance. Don't underestimate the value of a unit sitting behind enemy lines, it really tends to get on peoples nerves. If they don't attribute some part of their army to deal with them then just keep taking those pot shots.

and never, never underestimate poison. I played some Chameleons against my buddies WoC the other night and, granted I rolled better than average, I killed a hellcannon in a few rounds (he ignored my chameleons) when he missed his rampage roll and charged. 4 auto wounds with 2 failed saves and it was toast. Too bad we remembered that i had to roll a leadership test to keep from fleeing from terror. And failed. Miserably. Still, had I passed that instead of being caught as I fled, the hellcannon would have been d-e-d dead.

One fun way to redirect that I've found is to position skinks (skirmishers or cohorts, but i recommend cohorts for this so you can stand and shoot) one inch away from an enemy horde or other unit of 5 or more infantry models, aligned with one of the horde's sides, and perpendicular to the horde (so the two units look like they look something like this: l _ (a disconnected "L")). At first glance, it looks like your opponent gets a flank change, but, since the majority of his unit is in your front arc, they must charge the front of you skinks.

If they do charge, then they're likely to win combat and could reform if they wipe you out, but that would still pull them out of position and give you a possible charge. If you flee, then even if you're caught they're pulled out of position; likely giving you a flank charge if set up correctly. And i they don't charge, then you get to fire away at close range.

 

[Leokill27]

Thats pretty good, typically hordes I come up against have frenzy or hatred (DE Chaos and Tomb kings with a damn necrotek or whatever >.>) So with that, when they destroy the unit they will have to overrun, pulling further out of position!