Raising Awareness of the CCP in the news [POLITICAL]

[Killer Angel]

I do not like them, or to be more accurate, I do not like Zelenskyy

me neither...

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

me neither...

Good to know that I'm not the only one!

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Don't get me started on Ukraine, or we risk thread derailment. I do not like them, or to be more accurate, I do not like Zelenskyy

me neither...

Good to know that I'm not the only one!

Apologies in advance for any thread derailment, but I really must ask you both why on this one... whatever misdemeanours may be happening behind closed doors in Ukraine, they are nothing compared to the immense capacity for cruelty and parallels with Nazism and Soviet Communism on the part of Russian Hitler, AKA Vladimir Putin. As far as I know, Zelenskyy certainly hasn't assassinated political rivals (especially those advocating democracy) or overseen child indoctrination programmes, or freely allowed troops to commit mass war rape, as Putin has. His troops goose step past his podium in parades, just like those of the Third Reich did in Germany with Hitler 80 years before. His regime daubs Soviet-style propaganda murals upon the walls of buildings. He is gradually censoring more and more of the Internet to stop his people from hearing anything other than that which he wants them to hear. He oversees aggressive reactions to countries joining Nato, without ever considering that the only reason they do so is because they fear him. A shame, because without him, if Russia had continued to grow more and more democratic since the fall of the Soviets, they would have been welcome to join NATO and help maintain peace in Europe, rather than upsetting it.

The man is an aspiring Tsar, an aspiring Stalin, who cares nothing for the lives of his own soldiers and civilians, let alone those of the enemy, and he seems quite willing to allow the bloodshed to continue for as long as it takes until he can win a propaganda victory. A bully, just like his mate Trump, and a malevolent dictator tightening his grip upon the freedoms of ordinary people.

Whatever Zelenskyy may do in his private hours, he's nowhere near as bad as that.

 

[Killer Angel]

Apologies in advance for any thread derailment, but I really must ask you both why on this one... whatever misdemeanours may be happening behind closed doors in Ukraine, they are nothing compared to the immense capacity for cruelty and parallels with Nazism and Soviet Communism on the part of Russian Hitler, AKA Vladimir Putin.

it's not that i root for Putin (I DON'T, and the day he will die i won't be sad), but it just sickens me the fact that we are supporting the other side. I've had enough of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". it's not.

The Azov Brigade IS a nazi militia, and it has been integrated as part of the regular Ukraine army. Some of them wear SS insigna, for God's sake.

The Nordstream pipleline was sabotaged by ukranians, which put us in need of gas... nice blackmail from the country we're helping.

The russian-speaking minority in Ukraine was ostracized since 2014 and even before that... while certainly there was not a true hostility, it's for sure a behavior completely opposite to the EU attitude and values: for example, in Italy we've treasured the german-speaking minority in Alto-Adige (South Tyrolese).

And finally, it's the ukranian people the ones who bear the greatest burden of this war... and despite the evilness of Putin, NATO is responsible as well of the situation. We played risiko with Putin, using Ukraine as pawn, so we have our share of blame. And Zelensky is responsible as well for the bloodshed of his own people.


I will leave @NIGHTBRINGER to clarify on his issues.

 

[Scalenex]

Such as?

First off, other countries haven't forgotten about Covid...though I wish they were more punitive.

There is overwhelming evidence that the CCP is overstating China's population supposedly of 1.4 billion. This is a fact, it's just a mater of how much.

Conservative estimates suggest they are overstating their population by 100 million (the population of Japan) and liberal estimates suggest their population is actually only about 600 million. I believe the most credible is about 900 million.

A lot of Chinese people are revealing that foot, bike, and car traffic in major cities is way down from what it was 20 or 30 years ago. A lot of people have joked, when China had 900 million people traffic was really bad, now that 1.4 billion people, the roads are clear. Rural areas have a similar issue. Very frequently depopulated villages end up merging, so two or three underpopulated villages have opted to merge into one.

Spending on baby supplies and maternity wards is dropping rapidly. Kindergarten and daycare enrollment is way down and it's starting to work it's way to high school age students.

Consumption of basic commodities: salt, cooking oil, rice, pork, fuel is way down. If it was just salt, than maybe you can say "Chinese people are salting their food less than they used to", but all sorts of commodity spending is down. Based on the math, I think the estimates that China has 800 to 900 million people now seems reasonable.

While a bunch of infrastructure and spending is dropping, one type of spending is rising. Funeral homes and cremations. This is expanding at an unprecedented rate. Fewer babies and more deaths at the same time.

A lot of that is overstating the birthrate, but it's clear that China has been grossly understating the casualties they took from Covid. Not just direct deaths from Covid complications, but their really sloppy and ironfisted quarantine measures also killed people. Food shortages, suicide, and denying people health care for non-Covid related things because they weren't allowed in a hospital or got shuttled into a really crappy corrupt hospital (which is it's own problem).

There are glimmers of evidence peaking through China's Great Firewall that Covid is still killing people there or there is a new health crisis.

Chinese culture has a lot of positive values. Many of these positive values were destroyed under the CCP's boot over the last 75 years, but Chinese people historically have been thrifty and this value remains.

The Chinese internet has more grumbling that isn't fully being censored completely, and there is a general attitude that Covid was really bad and something bad is likely to happen again soon.

I mentioned commodity purchases are way down, but luxury purchases are in the toilet. China has two or three rough allegories to Valentines Day and spending on flowers and candy is way down. A lot of florists have gone out of business.

New Years is probably the biggest holiday in China, and spending on fancy food, fireworks, and other traditional items is way down.

Luxury spending is way down across the board and this is gutting China's domestic consumer economy. This is because Chinese people are good savers and they are expecting rough times ahead, so they aren't buying things they don't need to survive.

 

[Scalenex]

Whatever Zelenskyy may do in his private hours, he's nowhere near as bad as that.

I agree. If we are only able to ally with people who are saints, we would ally with no one.

Putin worked espionage before he took over the countries and the USSR was always good at propaganda. I think Ukraine's moral failures are likely blown out of proportion by Russian propagandists but even if all the talk is true, they are still the obvious Lesser of Two Evils.

I've had enough of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". it's not.

I respectively disagree. Allying with assholes because of mutual enemies has been a staple of politics for millennia and doing nothing isn't really an option. It looks great in meme forms but historically hasn't lead to good outcomes.



I believe we need to create a world where unprovoked aggression is punished, so other people don't do it (like say an invasion of Taiwan).

The Azov Brigade IS a nazi militia, and it has been integrated as part of the regular Ukraine army. Some of them wear SS insigna, for God's sake.

I don't like the Azov Brigade's choice of decor, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

This isn't that different from "Hitler was a vegetarian and an animal rights activist therefore all vegetarians and animal rights activists are morally equivalent to Hitler".

We can worry about the internal problems in Ukraine after the war is over. I don't follow Ukraine as closely as I follow China, but it seems Ukraine is winning and that Russia's internal problems are starting to become visible and the majority of Europe is committed to supporting Ukraine for the long-term.

I think we have a separate thread for Ukraine somewhere, but I don't think there is a whole lot of appetite on L-O for that sort of discussion.

There probably isn't much appetite for talking about the CCP, but that's my pet cause and it will remain so until the CCP collapses which hopefully I will live long enough to see.

 

[Killer Angel]

I respectively disagree. Allying with assholes because of mutual enemies has been a staple of politics for millennia

Yes, but war crimes have been a staple of conflicts for millenia, yet now we condemn them.
We are trying to be better, and to ally with assholes for convenience is imo not compatible with a solid moral ground.

I cannot say you are wrong, as i can see the many solid reasons for this approach... but still i don’t like it and i'm not gonna say i'm fine with it.

But i'm fine with closing this specific debate.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Apologies in advance for any thread derailment, but I really must ask you both why on this one... whatever misdemeanours may be happening behind closed doors in Ukraine, they are nothing compared to the immense capacity for cruelty and parallels with Nazism and Soviet Communism on the part of Russian Hitler, AKA Vladimir Putin. As far as I know, Zelenskyy certainly hasn't assassinated political rivals (especially those advocating democracy) or overseen child indoctrination programmes, or freely allowed troops to commit mass war rape, as Putin has. His troops goose step past his podium in parades, just like those of the Third Reich did in Germany with Hitler 80 years before. His regime daubs Soviet-style propaganda murals upon the walls of buildings. He is gradually censoring more and more of the Internet to stop his people from hearing anything other than that which he wants them to hear. He oversees aggressive reactions to countries joining Nato, without ever considering that the only reason they do so is because they fear him. A shame, because without him, if Russia had continued to grow more and more democratic since the fall of the Soviets, they would have been welcome to join NATO and help maintain peace in Europe, rather than upsetting it.

The man is an aspiring Tsar, an aspiring Stalin, who cares nothing for the lives of his own soldiers and civilians, let alone those of the enemy, and he seems quite willing to allow the bloodshed to continue for as long as it takes until he can win a propaganda victory. A bully, just like his mate Trump, and a malevolent dictator tightening his grip upon the freedoms of ordinary people.

Whatever Zelenskyy may do in his private hours, he's nowhere near as bad as that.

I never said I liked Putin. I dislike Brie Larson, but Kathleen Kennedy is worse. I still dislike Brie Larson.

NATO is responsible as well of the situation. We played risiko with Putin, using Ukraine as pawn, so we have our share of blame. And Zelensky is responsible as well for the bloodshed of his own people.

I fully agree with this. It doesn't necessarily absolve Putin of guilt, but we played our part too. It's easy to lose sight of that sometimes when we naturally view ourselves as the good guys and the Russians as the bad guys.

Additionally, Ukraine is corrupt as hell (yes, so is Russia) and I am sick and tired of Canada funding the Ukrainian war. Every time I turn on the news it's a couple hundred million here and a couple billion there. We've got plenty of problems here. I want to see our tax dollars addressing problems with our overstressed health care, or combating crime or addressing our national debt or dealing with our housing shortage or any number of other things. It would be one thing to strain our tax base in support a long standing ally, but Ukraine does not fit this criteria. Many people here are fed up with our money being sent overseas in support of their war. Especially when Zelenskyy often times comes off as ungrateful. They say two wrongs don't make a right, but watching Trump (who is far from being a proper diplomatic statesman) throw Zelenskyy out of the White House only to have Zelenskyy return on bended knee with hat in hand begging was entertaining as hell!

Next, the guy just rubs me the wrong way. Every time I listen to him speak it grates my soul. Have you ever heard someone speak and you simply don't like them? And to make things worse, the media is constantly trying to paint him as this brave hero. He is not the one fighting on the front line, it's the Ukrainian soldiers (many of whom are forced to be there) that are putting their lives directly on the line. So each time I read an article that is portraying him as heroic, I dislike him more.


That said, everything above is inconsequential compared with his recent threat against Hungarian Prime Minster Viktor Orban:

"We hope that someone in the European Union will not block the €90 billion... Otherwise, we will give this person's address to our armed forces. They will contact him in their own language"

My background is Hungarian, so my loyalties stand with them. Threatening an EU and NATO member in such a way is unacceptable. It's also pretty stupid as seeing it through would immediately activate article 5 of NATO. Ukraine would quickly find their previous allies are now their enemies. What is it again that they say about fighting a war on two fronts? Zelenskyy is an ungrateful piece of shit and maybe he should fight is own battles without anybody's help. We'll see how long he lasts against Russia then.

The enemy of my friend is my enemy!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

First off, other countries haven't forgotten about Covid

That's definitely a black mark on the country.

There is overwhelming evidence that the CCP is overstating China's population supposedly of 1.4 billion. This is a fact, it's just a mater of how much.

Conservative estimates suggest they are overstating their population by 100 million (the population of Japan) and liberal estimates suggest their population is actually only about 600 million. I believe the most credible is about 900 million.

A lot of Chinese people are revealing that foot, bike, and car traffic in major cities is way down from what it was 20 or 30 years ago. A lot of people have joked, when China had 900 million people traffic was really bad, now that 1.4 billion people, the roads are clear. Rural areas have a similar issue. Very frequently depopulated villages end up merging, so two or three underpopulated villages have opted to merge into one.

Spending on baby supplies and maternity wards is dropping rapidly. Kindergarten and daycare enrollment is way down and it's starting to work it's way to high school age students.

Consumption of basic commodities: salt, cooking oil, rice, pork, fuel is way down. If it was just salt, than maybe you can say "Chinese people are salting their food less than they used to", but all sorts of commodity spending is down. Based on the math, I think the estimates that China has 800 to 900 million people now seems reasonable.

While a bunch of infrastructure and spending is dropping, one type of spending is rising. Funeral homes and cremations. This is expanding at an unprecedented rate. Fewer babies and more deaths at the same time.

A lot of that is overstating the birthrate, but it's clear that China has been grossly understating the casualties they took from Covid. Not just direct deaths from Covid complications, but their really sloppy and ironfisted quarantine measures also killed people. Food shortages, suicide, and denying people health care for non-Covid related things because they weren't allowed in a hospital or got shuttled into a really crappy corrupt hospital (which is it's own problem).

Interesting. Why are they so adamant to inflate their population by such a large margin? Military strength? Economic base?

 

[Scalenex]

Interesting. Why are they so adamant to inflate their population by such a large margin? Military strength? Economic base?

It's pure speculation as to what the CCP's motives are. They aren't honest about what they are doing. They are not going to tell us why they do what they do.

There are two main motives and you already touched on one.

The CCP never ever admits mistakes.

They don't want to admit that the one-child policy was a mistake.

They don't want to admit that Mao's policies gutted their agricultural sector which is still giving them food problems and led to the one-child policy.

They don't want to admit that they handled the Covid pandemic badly, or that their medical system is bad at helping the citizenry with ordinary ailments or that they are murdering people for their organs for rich people.

They don't want to admit that their lax pollution controls are making people sick.

They don't want to admit that an economic climate of hopelessness is contributing to Chinese people not wanting to marry and have babies.

The CCP loves to brag about being the most populous country in the world in diplomatic and economic negotiations

They like to not so subtly flex that they are a great military power simply because they have a lot of potential soldiers.

They like to use their large population to attract foreign investors. 1.4 billion potential customers to buy your product! Never mind that the CCP heavily restricts the flow of foreign made good and media in China, the fact that most of the population is poverty, or that the population is not that big.

I guess there is a third theory. The third theory is that the CCP isn't a unified bloc. Some want to overstate the population and some don't.

The local provincial governments in China are not able to levy taxes, or at least they aren't able to levy large taxes. They get most of their funds by selling real estate leases or begging the national CCP for federal money.

If a local government sets up a school, the amount of federal money they get depends on how many students attend the school. If a local government sets up a hospital, the amount of federal money they get depends on how many patients they treat. This applies to almost everything, police, fire department, garbage collection, etc.

This means local governments have a huge incentive to pretend that their population is larger because they get more money.

This even applies to the military. If the local commanders can make it look like they have more soldiers on paper than their base contains, they get more supplies. Then they hoard or sell the extra gear.

This even goes beyond the government. The pension that retirees get isn't very big but it's not nothing, and many families will pretend their dead relatives are still alive, so they can keep collecting the pensions. This doesn't just apply to retirement pensions. China is still a communist country and (in theory at least) communist governments give their citizens various forms of support. Faking one's family as being larger means you get more stuff.

There are some limits to how many pieces of real estate or other property one person can own, so some people have a fake ID so they can acquire more things.

Damn near every government employee is taking bribes of some form and fake people is an easy way to hide graft. Note, everything the CCP announces a purge of government corruption it just happens to be the case that the only CCP members prosecuted are those on the bad side of Winnie the Pooh who is of course, completely free of corruption.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

The CCP never ever admits mistakes.

So pretty much like all governments and politicians.

They don't want to admit that their lax pollution controls are making people sick.

To be fair they have come a long ways in terms of Green Energy development, a global leader by some estimates. They still have a long ways to go (they're still highly reliant on coal for instance), but they are improving at a very rapid pace.

They don't want to admit that an economic climate of hopelessness is contributing to Chinese people not wanting to marry and have babies.

The birthrate decline is something we see across most western countries. China is hardly an outlier in that regard.

Winnie the Pooh who is of course, completely free of corruption.

Well...

View attachment 173134

 

[Scalenex]

So pretty much like all governments and politicians.

Well yeah, but if you have two or more political parties, at least SOMEONE in the country will call out your mistakes. Also, Western countries will cop to mistakes they made 30+ years ago.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Well yeah, but if you have two or more political parties, at least SOMEONE in the country will call out your mistakes. Also, Western countries will cop to mistakes they made 30+ years ago.

It's not like that gives us any more transparency or accountability. In that system the other side criticizes and vilifies their opponent no matter what. That's just a shit flinging contest. Bush/Obama/Biden/Trump/etc. could jump into a burning building and rescue a dozen children and the opposition would criticize them for stepping on the flower garden on their way in. Any genuine acknowledgement of error in that system is completely lost in the noise.

Just to be perfectly clear I'm not advocating a one party system, but if we look at it purely from the lens of admitting mistakes, I don't think it matters all that much. A bit better, but not groundbreakingly so (unless we consider the popcorn angle).

 

[Scalenex]

I'm done with idealism.

In this imperfect world, if one political system, one candidate or one anything is 1% better than the next best alternative, that thing has 100% of my support.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I'm done with idealism.

I'd say it's less about idealism and more about nuance.

In this imperfect world, if one political system, one candidate or one anything is 1% better than the next best alternative, that thing has 100% of my support.

Sadly it's always a matter of tradeoffs. One system may be better at one thing, while the other is better at something else. Otherwise there would be no competition, discussion or issue.

 

[Scalenex]

I'd say it's less about idealism and more about nuance.


Sadly it's always a matter of tradeoffs. One system may be better at one thing, while the other is better at something else. Otherwise there would be no competition, discussion or issue.

This is also true. As Thomas Sowell is famous for saying, "there are no solutions, only trade-offs".