8th Ed. Questions from a noob: Part 6 - new questions

[Pinktaco]

PART 6: A few questions we just need to have confirmed, it's nothing major:

1) My friend is sure to have read that if you charge someone in the front and in the back/rear they cannot be steadfast anymore. He couldn't find it in the BRB when I questioned him, but I just find it hard to believe that you need 2 ranks of at leats 5 models just to disrupt someone (and deny them their rank bonus), but can take any single model in the rear/flank of someone who is already engaged in CC and rob them of their steadfast.

So did he mix up the disruption rule or is there truly something else?

2) The ancient steg comes with giant blowpipes. These are not considere slow to fire so I assume they can stand and shoot or am I missing something here? My friend questioned it a bit. it did 3 wounds on his orc boar chariot that got a charge of on my steg. Lol.

3) The flying rules are a bit random. It says that you can charge over other units if you can see the unit you want to charge, but the flying unit starts on the ground and not in the air.. So are we supposed to take a true line of sight from the ground, which means that you cannot really charge over units unless you're positioned on high ground? Or are we just supposed to accept that the actual charge doesn't start until it's up in the air and can see every target that are not hidden behind buildings, mountains etc.?

4) I'm a bit unsure about poison and strenght. Am I just supposed to understand that if the O&G wyvern hits with poison it'll proceed to modify armour with strenght just like normal (-3 due to S6).

5) Terror sort of baffles me. The rule states that it makes both terror and fear. Terror is on the turn it charges, but fear is every turn of CC. Am I to understand that Terror works on the turn you charge followed by fear in every turn of CC?.

6) Something weird I thought about: Kroxigors have ASL, what happens when you use Birona's Timewarp on them? Do they then just strike at their initiative? Can you then follow up and cast The Speed of Light on them and give them M12 (or is it 10?), WS10, I10, 7S and 4A each? That's brutal, but also not easy to get off.

7) Impact hit and Thunderstomp is accounted for as shooting due to the "unusual attack" ruling. Am I correct in that the templeguards AS3+ against shooting also works against a thunderstomp?


PART 5: I got a few more questions:


1) If a model have random movement is that model then forced to move according to what is rolled OR stand still? I mean, say a random movement model have 3 dice and roll a 3, 3 and 5 - 11. Can the player then decide NOT to move 11 and just 5"?

2) about single models and pivot - can a model pivot at the end of the movement phase? Meaning that a flying model then can fly behind a unit, pivot to face them and then charge the following round? Or is it forced to use one turn on the actual turning around and then charge 2 turns after the initial fly movement?

3) Say unit is engaged in the front and the rear. The unit attacking in the front kills enough models (taken out from the rear) so that the unit attacking in the rear now is no longer in B2B contact with those they initially where? I assume that the rear-attacking unit just moves up.

4) Against a dwarf player is it actually worth using cameleon skinks? The dwarf player can secure his flanks with Organ Guns and if he's fortunate enough to start he can tear those silly little skinks apart with no effort. If you have 10 Cameleon Skinks you can almost buy 20 skink skirmisher OR 26 skink cohort.

I probably have some more so I'll come back when it comes to me.

Also, I've looked up some of the questions myself, but there are still some disagreement.


PART 4: I came to think of some more questions OLD


- I'm apparently unable to find anything in the book about how to pivot lone units (stegadon, bastiladon, cowboys etc). Do they work like skirmish units if they want to turn around and charge or do they use the "wheel" rules?

- A question about fleeing units: Say I've already had my turn and it's my opponents turn. He charges me (succesfully), but loses the combat and flees. I persuit. What happens in the following round which is my turn? Can I then use my normal charge after the unit followed by my opponent being able to flee yet again or is the fleeing unit just destroyed? The issue is that the already fleeing unit haven't rallied yet (I assume this always happens in the fleeing players own movement phase) and they've just run/already run once.

- What about magic banners in a Cold One unit? Do the flaming banner give both the rider AND the mount flaming attacks? Otherwise the banner of swiftness is unusable for cavalry units?

- Do "regular" flaming attacks (from flaming banner, magic, breath attasks etc) cause panic?

- Certain special attacks (for instance the ark of sotek snake attack) counts as shooting. It this in term of aiming at a character in a unit and combat resolution.

- Can you thunderstomp a unit that makes stomp? - Can a stegadon stomp a demigryph? (similar to terror vs fear units).

- how do the "make way" rule work exactly? I mean, can you make way each turn of combat if you wanted to? - Can you make way from the front to the flank, kill stuff and then move back to the front in the following combat phase?

PART 3 OLD

Had another game today with more questions, some of them are getting more complex so they're harder to read from the book.

- Do you reroll a reroll with Curse of the Midnight Wind (Heaven Lore)? How about predatory fighter? It is generated in the To Hit phase, but is not an actual To Hit attempt so do I reroll that too?

- Can a mage wear heavy armour? - What I mean is: can you put a mage on a horse with barding and equip it to have something like 2+ Amour Save?

- Do the warmachine take a panic test if it loses 1/3 of its crew due to shooting?

- Is stomp based on the units unmodified strenght which would result in S5 from kroxigors?

- The scout deployment rules just mention your own deployment zone and the "battlefield", does this mean that you cannot deploy in your opponenets zone (just making sure here).

- Can the Charmed Shield deflect a cannon ball? If yes how do I explain this to my friend since it doesn't really roll for To Hit?

- Here's a longer one - how do you resolve the following:

4 inner circle knights charges your etheral slann and basically does nothing to him. In the following round 4 kroxigors charges the IC knights in the front. The Kroxigors then proceed to kill all, but one IC knight and the slann does jack shit with his skink. IC knight doesn't break.

Following round an annoying empire hero on pegasus charges the slann in the front. Right, so now it gets messy IMO because of the following: Kroxigors kill the last standing IC knight, however, what happens now? The kroxigors charged the knights who are now dead, however before they died a hero joined in on the battle. Are they considered to be in combat with the hero too? Mind you they aren't currently in Base to Base contact with him. Or are they now free to do whatever they want (charge the hero or something like that). If they are still considered to be in combat with the hero does he then move up so that the maximum amount of units can hit him, meaning something like one krox and the slann?

If it's unclear what I mean I'll try and draw something in paint and upload.

PART 2 OLD
I had my second game today and we came up with various questions. Some we felt were somewhat complex and not easy to look up in the heat of the game, so I've decided to ask them here as quickly as possible before I forget it [/color][/b]

- How does the combined Skink/Kroxigor unit work in terms of ranks? Does the 3 krox count as 1 or 2 ranks? What happens when one Krox dies and skinks move up?

- What happens when the Ripperdactyls (and for that matter Terradons) are flanked or attacked in the rear if I want to flee? Today we played it as they couldn't flee because "they didn't see the attack come". We couldn't find a clear solution in the book since other than flanks and combat resolution.

- Can light cavalry who've rallied charge? We were uncertain whether they could charge too or just move around/use their movement to get away.

- A question about persuing: so my bastiladon made a small unit of pistoliers flee today, HOWEVER they ran straight into 5 regular Empire knights. What's the reaction here? Since the Bastiladon could catch up with the Pistoliers it ended up running straight into the knights instead.

- What happens when a unit charges, but ends up 1 inch/less/just barely reaching the unit it's charging? Nothing? I had a unit of 5 knights persuing my Skrox unit, killing it and ended up something like 1 inch away from my ancient stegadon. We came up with some homemade rules. The reason is that there wouldn't have been enough space for it to wheel around (it was placed with its side to them) and charge them - should we just have done nothing? Could it wheel around and charge or nothing at all?

- How is the thunderstomp wounds split when you attack a unit with a character in it? The same way as when shooting?

PART 1 [OLD


As the title say I'm a noob and had my first game last weekend. I'm about to have another one tomorrow and there are several things that I need to have cleared.

- What happens when/if my last spell caster dies in terms of PD and DD?

- How exactly does the charge reaction "flee" work on light cav such as the empires Pistolier (and similar units) and their reform? The friend i played vs and one of our common friends had a minor discussion about this during our game so I would just like to have this cleared up.

- Does armour save work with spears? My friend say it only gives AS vs ranged attack which would mean that Saurus warriors with spears would only have their scaly skin of 5+ compared to hand weapons which would have a parry and an additional +1 AS? .

- How exactly does the impact hit from the stegadons upgrade work?

- Do Terradons and Ripperdactyls have vanguard? I believe I've seen people mentioning it, but it's not mentioned in the army book.

- How do I stop unit of 15 inner circle knights with Warrior Priest and General?


There is probably more, but this is what I can remember and is stuff I've been thinking about.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

- What happens when/if my last spell caster dies in terms of PD and DD?

You still generate them, but you can't cast spells and you can't channel. You can still dispel spells, but you don't get to add a wizard level to the attempt. ("Army dispel")

- How exactly does the charge reaction "flee" work on light cav such as the empires Pistolier (and similar units) and their reform? The friend i played vs and one of our common friends had a minor discussion about this during our game so I would just like to have this cleared up.

It works just like a normal flee reaction, and they still have to test to rally the next turn. However, if they pass their leadership test, the "feigned flight" rule allows them to move and shoot as normal. Normally, a unit that just rallied can't do much of anything.

- Does armour save work with spears? My friend say it only gives AS vs ranged attack which would mean that Saurus warriors with spears would only have their scaly skin of 5+ compared to hand weapons which would have a parry and an additional +1 AS? .

Your friend is not correct. The spear does not factor into the equation. The armor save is a 5+ scaly skin, +1 for a shield, for a total of 4+. The parry save is, however, specific to having a hand weapon and shield. So the trade off for saurus is: do you want a row of extra support attacks, or do you want a 6+ parry save?

- How exactly does the impact hit from the stegadons upgrade work?

Against regular infantry, it doesn't do much of anything, because you can't do more than 1 wound to each model. Against beefier targets, pick up all the dice which rolled a successful wound, and roll them again. Treat a 1-2 as a "1", a 3-4 as a "2", and a 5-6 as a 3, and add up the total. That's how many wounds you did.

Examples:
- Stegadon charges infantry block. You roll a 4 (getting 5 automatic hits [D6 +1]). You wound on a 2+, so you roll 5 dice and get a single 1. Your enemy is at -3 to armor save (assuming ancient steg), so his infantry may not get an armor save, meaning your final tally is 4 wounds. You could go ahead and roll the expansion to D3 wounds, but you might as well skip this step since it won't do anything.

- Stegadon charges dragon. You roll a 4 (getting 5 automatic hits [D6 +1]). You wound on a 4+, so you roll 5 dice and get a single 1 and a single 2. Your enemy is at -3 to armor save (assuming ancient steg), so maybe he saves one, so your final tally is 2 wounds. You now pick up those two dice and reroll them, getting a 4 and a 5. That's a D3 roll of "2" and "3", so your 2 wounds just became 5, and the dragon probably dies.

- Do Terradons and Ripperdactyls have vanguard? I believe I've seen people mentioning it, but it's not mentioned in the army book.

Yes. Flying Cavalry obeys the rules of Fast Cavalry, and Fast Cavalry has Vanguard.

- How do I stop unit of 15 inner circle knights with Warrior Priest and General?

Tarpit them with a big unit of saurus/temple guard or a stegadon, and then hit them in the flank with a unit of 6 Kroxigor or some other big, mobile monster. You can also cast magic at them, or kill them one model at a time with a cowboy. (Odds are none of his stuff can hurt an oldblood cowboy.)

 

[Lizardmen_Jeff]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

As the title say I'm a noob and had my first game last weekend. I'm about to have another one tomorrow and there are several things that I need to have cleared.

- What happens when/if my last spell caster dies in terms of PD and DD?
You still roll for winds of magic as per normal but you would no longer be able to attempt channeling


- How exactly does the charge reaction "flee" work on light cav such as the empires Pistolier (and similar units) and their reform? The friend i played vs and one of our common friends had a minor discussion about this during our game so I would just like to have this cleared up.
Fast cav can flee as per normal, but on their turn if they rally they can reform and move as per normal


- Does armour save work with spears? My friend say it only gives AS vs ranged attack which would mean that Saurus warriors with spears would only have their scaly skin of 5+ compared to hand weapons which would have a parry and an additional +1 AS? .
You still get a 4+ armor save but would no longer get teh 6++ parry save


- How exactly does the impact hit from the stegadons upgrade work?
If the steg gets a charge off on a unit, before you start combat you do d6+1 impact hits. If you have the sharpened horns each one of those hits does d3 wounds. If your opponents unit only has a single wound per model it basically does nothing, but if you charge something with multiple wounds like demigryphs you could wipe out the whole unit!


- Do Terradons and Ripperdactyls have vanguard? I believe I've seen people mentioning it, but it's not mentioned in the army book.
Yes, they have the fast cav rule which grants them vanguard


- How do I stop unit of 15 inner circle knights with Warrior Priest and General?
you lead them around the board with your skirmishers and either try to get off a flank or rear charge or ignor them and go after the other, easier to destroy, elements in their army


There is probably more, but this is what I can remember and is stuff I've been thinking about.

Hope thsi helps!

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Thanks a lot guys

Here are a couple of follow-up questions:

- Do units with halbards also use their shield in combat similar to spears?

- about impact hit - so if I've understood it right a steg is able to make a maximum of 7(D6+1) x 3 (=21) potential attack just from the impact hit alone? - not saying that it will happen, but at S6 that should wreck some face if the steg get the charge.

 

[n810]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Thanks a lot guys

Here are a couple of follow-up questions:

- Do units with halbards also use their shield in combat similar to spears?
halbards take 2 hands to use,
so you only get to use the shield when you are not in combat, like when people are shooting you.

In older editions you used to be able to choose between hand weapons and shields or halbred for each combat

- about impact hit - so if I've understood it right a steg is able to make a maximum of 7(D6+1) x 3 (=21) potential attack just from the impact hit alone? - not saying that it will happen, but at S6 that should wreck some face if the steg get the charge.

Yep. and they hit before allways strikes first weapons.
MAKE SURE HE GETS THE CHARGE

 

[Pofadder]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Sharpened horns gives the impact hits multi-wound D3 special rule...
This means against single wound models you can only do a single wound per model. Say you get 2 impact hits then you can kill only 2 halbediers. Against multi-wound models like monsters MI, MC etc then you roll the D3 because they have more wounds.

 

[Qupakoco]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

For your questions about weapons like Spear ans Halberds, you really ought to read the "Weapons" section of the BRB. Halberds are considered two-handed weapons while Spears are not. Two-handers don't let you use a shield in Close Combat.

 

[Lizardmen_Jeff]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

To clarify re impact hits, these are not attacks but auto hits that happen before the combat starts. So you have the potential to do 21 wounds, but if the models in the unit you are charging only have a single wound each you will only have a max 7 wounds possible

 

[Lizardmen_Jeff]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Sharpened horns gives the impact hits multi-wound D3 special rule...
This means against single wound models you can only do a single wound per model. Say you get 2 impact hits then you can kill only 2 halbediers. Against multi-wound models like monsters MI, MC etc then you roll the D3 because they have more wounds.

Doh, beat me to it!

 

[Scalenex]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Thanks a lot guys

Here are a couple of follow-up questions:

- Do units with halbards also use their shield in combat similar to spears?

- about impact hit - so if I've understood it right a steg is able to make a maximum of 7(D6+1) x 3 (=21) potential attack just from the impact hit alone? - not saying that it will happen, but at S6 that should wreck some face if the steg get the charge.

I wasn't aware ANY Empire players ever took shields on their halberdiers! That's a lot of points for minor shooting protection.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

For your questions about weapons like Spear ans Halberds, you really ought to read the "Weapons" section of the BRB. Halberds are considered two-handed weapons while Spears are not. Two-handers don't let you use a shield in Close Combat.

TBH when I looked for an answer to my question I looked elsewhere - specifically in the small snippet about shields and I didn't quite get my answer, but thanks anyway.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Thanks a lot guys

Here are a couple of follow-up questions:

- Do units with halbards also use their shield in combat similar to spears?

- about impact hit - so if I've understood it right a steg is able to make a maximum of 7(D6+1) x 3 (=21) potential attack just from the impact hit alone? - not saying that it will happen, but at S6 that should wreck some face if the steg get the charge.

I wasn't aware ANY Empire players ever took shields on their halberdiers! That's a lot of points for minor shooting protection.

I don't think my friend does that, but we have temple guards who do have shields so I was just wondering

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

Well.. thanks for all the answers!

I'll have my game tomorrow so there might come more questions afterwards.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Questions from a noob after his first game

I got one last question before tomorrow's game:

- How does the bastiladon Ark of Sotek attack work in close combat?

The book specifically mentions the following: "the ark of sotek can be activated in any friendly shooting phase, even if the bastiladon has marched, charged or is engaged in close combat".

So what is the general opinion? - Can the attack be used on targets it's already engaged at?

 

[Madrck]

Re: Questions from a noob: how does the bastiladons AoS work

The one time I fielded it we agreed it hit everything in D6", even things in cc ect...
Just ask whoever you are playing against, and really it's S2 hits. Did nothing for me

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Questions from a noob: how does the bastiladons AoS work

There's actually a little bit of rules lawyering possible, but the intended functionality is pretty clearly that it hits everything within range, regardless of other complications.

But, it doesn't really matter - the Ark of Sotek is terrible, so you should probably pick the Solar Engine instead. Not only will it make your army better, but it will avoid the weird rules questions.

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 2

PART 2:
I had my second game today and we came up with various questions. Some we felt were somewhat complex and not easy to look up in the heat of the game, so I've decided to ask them here as quickly as possible before I forget it

- How does the combined Skink/Kroxigor unit work in terms of ranks? Does the 3 krox count as 1 or 2 ranks? What happens when one Krox dies and skinks move up?

- What happens when the Ripperdactyls (and for that matter Terradons) are flanked or attacked in the rear if I want to flee? Today we played it as they couldn't flee because "they didn't see the attack come". We couldn't find a clear solution in the book since other than flanks and combat resolution.

- Can light cavalry who've rallied charge? We were uncertain whether they could charge too or just move around/use their movement to get away.

- A question about persuing: so my bastiladon made a small unit of pistoliers flee today, HOWEVER they ran straight into 5 regular Empire knights. What's the reaction here? Since the Bastiladon could catch up with the Pistoliers it ended up running straight into the knights instead.

- What happens when a unit charges, but ends up 1 inch/less/just barely reaching the unit it's charging? Nothing? I had a unit of 5 knights persuing my Skrox unit, killing it and ended up something like 1 inch away from my ancient stegadon. We came up with some homemade rules. The reason is that there wouldn't have been enough space for it to wheel around (it was placed with its side to them) and charge them - should we just have done nothing? Could it wheel around and charge or nothing at all?

- How is the thunderstomp wounds split when you attack a unit with a character in it? The same way as when shooting?

 

[n810]

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 2

PART 2:
I had my second game today and we came up with various questions. Some we felt were somewhat complex and not easy to look up in the heat of the game, so I've decided to ask them here as quickly as possible before I forget it

- How does the combined Skink/Kroxigor unit work in terms of ranks? Does the 3 krox count as 1 or 2 ranks? What happens when one Krox dies and skinks move up?
2 ranks, and yes, skinks move up

- What happens when the Ripperdactyls (and for that matter Terradons) are flanked or attacked in the rear if I want to flee? Today we played it as they couldn't flee because "they didn't see the attack come". We couldn't find a clear solution in the book since other than flanks and combat resolution.
fleeing does not depend on facing

- Can light cavalry who've rallied charge? We were uncertain whether they could charge too or just move around/use their movement to get away.
not sure, check the rulebook under the "light cavalry" and "who can charge" entries.

- A question about pursuing: so my bastiladon made a small unit of pistoliers flee today, HOWEVER they ran straight into 5 regular Empire knights. What's the reaction here? Since the Bastiladon could catch up with the Pistoliers it ended up running straight into the knights instead.
if your pursue dice is higher than his flee dice then you catch him and the unit is dead, afterward move the model as per the roll, if this takes you into another unit fight that sombat next turn
if you fail to roll higher, than your opponent would have had to take a dangerous terrain test for fleeing through his own unit.

- What happens when a unit charges, but ends up 1 inch/less/just barely reaching the unit it's charging? Nothing? I had a unit of 5 knights pursuing my Skrox unit, killing it and ended up something like 1 inch away from my ancient stegadon. We came up with some homemade rules. The reason is that there wouldn't have been enough space for it to wheel around (it was placed with its side to them) and charge them - should we just have done nothing? Could it wheel around and charge or nothing at all?
then it would be a failed charge and your unit would just move up it's normal movement toward the unit instead.

- How is the thunderstomp wounds split when you attack a unit with a character in it? The same way as when shooting?
Yea, I believe thats right

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 2

- You count Kroxigor as 2 ranks. Skinks from the back move up to fill in for any dead Krox. Don't just slide 4 skinks up though, you have to keep them ranked.

- You flee directly away from whatever inspired the fleeing. The unit turns any way it needs to for free in order to get that facing.

- No, they cannot charge.

- If the bastilladon's pursuit roll was high enough to reach, it counts as charging the new unit, and the new unit is forced to choose "hold" as a charge reaction because it is taken by surprise. Note also that if the pistoliers actually fled through the other unit, the other unit has to take a Panic test for being fled through. Note that the newly charged unit will NOT also be forced to take a terror test from being charged by the 'don, because you can only test for panic once each phase.

- If you fail a charge, you do not move forward the full distance. Instead, you "stumble" forward a number of inches equal to the highest single die you rolled.

- You have to pick a model in base contact for the stomps to target. If there is also a character present that is small enough to be susceptible, you can choose to direct your stomps towards either the character or the unit, but you have to choose between them.

 

[n810]

Re: Questions from a noob: Part 2

What he said, I was just going from memory.