8th Ed. question on characters joining saurus

[pendrell]

hi there, I am exploring new ways to bunker my caster, TG are bad as compared to other armies special infantry and tetto eko often dies too fast when it is in cohorts.
With the new ET magic rules I would like to get two good casters since I am very much afraid that high magic is going to be everywhere due to the ET high magic spell.
I am exploring the possibility of bunkering them in a saurus block. In this way I can use up core points for the bunker and use the remaining points for good stuff. I will give them magic resistance 3 and stubborn for durability. Is the following legal?

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=156pfsl&s=8#.VJG20SvF-VM

 

[SilverFaith]

You are entering dangerous territory, ruleswise. I'll let someone more into those rules answer that.

I am, however, confused about how tetto dies quickly when in a cohort. He seems pretty durable when placed like that, in my experience at least. How do you normally use the cohort bunker?

Especially with end times, I've been a lot more fond of blocking LOS to warmachines that can hurt the slann, and then make him ethereal. I don't want him in a unit he'll likely have killed by himself by turn 4 becaause of miscasts.

 

[rantapanda]

I think it is very clear. That is perfectly legal. Using cavalry in an infantryblock is abit dangerous though since they dont get look out sir.

 

[pendrell]

I am, however, confused about how tetto dies quickly when in a cohort. He seems pretty durable when placed like that, in my experience at least. How do you normally use the cohort bunker?

Especially with end times, I've been a lot more fond of blocking LOS to warmachines that can hurt the slann, and then make him ethereal. I don't want him in a unit he'll likely have killed by himself by turn 4 becaause of miscasts.

I used him in medium size cohorts or in skirmisher units. Whenever I put him in one of these they become magnets of ranged/magical shooting, cavalry from the side or flyers. They either often run away or die being T2. A strong point of skinks is that they are expendables so it is fine if they die. But putting inside a nearly 200 points character means that they need to do something that they have not being designed for. Penhaps big units last some more but I haven't had that much experience with that.

Ethereal slann would be great if it wasn't unstable. I had him dead of combat res alone.

Using cavalry in an infantryblock is abit dangerous though since they dont get look out sir.

I don't mind that much of look out sir. Oldblood gets 4+ ward save with armor of destiny or talismam of protection. And with magic resistance 3 means that you have a 2+ ward against spells and sniping spells. Against cannons you still have 4+ ward. And with tetto giving the unit vanguard it will not take long before hitting combat, where cannons are not an issue anymore. To be honest I am more concern of my ancient steg getting tit by a cannon.

 

[LawGnome]

Regarding Tetto in a cohort block:

I normally run him with a block of about 26 or so skinks to act as shooting cover. Keep them behind your main combat units and run around to avoid getting charged. If you know that you are going to get charged, you should still have steadfast for a few rounds, so just turn into it.

Things to avoid when making a tetto bunker: don't put him in with skirmishers. You want the added body count to prevent yourself from running. First time I ran Tetto in skirmishers he wound up running all over the map because of trueflight arrows. Not worth it.

The main things to remember are that cohorts are cheap. Super cheap. For 130 points, you get shooting cover that will last for days, and you won't care that they don't really get into combat. You have combat units for combat. Just keep the cohort out of the way.

 

[hdctambien]

Whenever I put him in one of these they become magnets of ranged/magical shooting, cavalry from the side or flyers. They either often run away or die being T2.

If your opponent wants to kill Tetto'ekko, Tetto'ekko will die. But that's not terrible. If he's focusing that much on killing a <200 point character, the other 2000 points of your army should be mopping up the battlefield.

When I run Tetto I put him in a medium size block of Skinks with 1 or 2 Kroxigor. The Krox gives them Ld 7, that keeps them from panicking when the Slann is out of range. I'll have 14 - 20 skinks in the unit. They are mostly wound markers, but I will use them to shoot at stuff if it comes down to it. If I am expecting to get charged, I'll reform them into two ranks so that all 20 skinks can shoot.

Does your opponent really want to suffer through 20 poison shots in your shooting phase, then 20 poison quick to fire, stand-and-shoot shots before getting into combat with 2 Kroxigor? He can stop the Kroxigor pain by targeting them with his attacks, but then he's not going to get the CR from killing skinks. Or he can try to get the CR, but then he's going to take 6 S7 hits from the Krox (after 40 poison jav shots!)

Your run of the mill fast cav and scouts aren't going to be taking this unit out.

Heavens magic is best used to buff your combat units (Harmonic, Iceshard, etc) so the proper place for this unit is behind your fighting units. That should give you some pretty good cover from shooting. If your opponent is still shooting at Tetto's unit, then he's not shooting at your actual combat units.

If your opponent is shooting war machines and magic at Tetto's unit, then he's not focusing on the units that are actually going to hurt him! You already got Tetto's vanguard. The ability to reroll 1's in the magic phase is nice, but I'd rather lose that than lose my Level 4 caster. Go ahead and kill Tetto, my Slann will laugh all the way to the bank!

I don't mind that much of look out sir. Oldblood gets 4+ ward save with armor of destiny or talismam of protection. And with magic resistance 3 means that you have a 2+ ward against spells and sniping spells. Against cannons you still have 4+ ward. And with tetto giving the unit vanguard it will not take long before hitting combat, where cannons are not an issue anymore. To be honest I am more concern of my ancient steg getting tit by a cannon.

Unless you're going to run Cold One Cav, Cowboys will never get a lookout sir, so that's not really anything to worry about when putting them into a block of Saurus. Unfortunately, if your opponent has 1 cannon, he probably has 2 (if not 3!). And 2 cannons are usually enough to kill a Scar Vet in a single turn, even if he has a 4+ ward. Sometimes you'll ward both cannon shots, and sometimes both Old Bloods will die in the first turn. That's just the way of the game, though.

However, the best cannon defense for your Scar Vets is an Ancient Stegadon. If your opponent knows what's good for him, he's throwing all his heavy firepower at that guy! Same thing goes for Tetto. If your opponent has magic missiles, he should probably be throwing them at the Stegadon rather than Tetto's Skink Cohort unit.

with tetto giving the unit vanguard it will not take long before hitting combat, where cannons are not an issue anymore. To be honest I am more concern of my ancient steg getting tit by a cannon.

The problem you're going to eventually run into is chaff units that you kill too quickly. Sure, you're going to vanguard 12" to the middle of the board. But I'm going to throw something cheap, fast, and weak in front of you.

Do you charge them? If you do, you'll kill them and you can choose to overrun into the middle of nowhere or reform. But when it's my turn you're not going to be in combat and will be prime fodder for my cannons.

It doesn't take too many games for players to figure out how to win when you vanguard your big killer unit to the middle of the table.

I am exploring new ways to bunker my caster, TG are bad as compared to other armies special infantry

Your idea is perfectly legal, but if you plan on getting this unit into combat, Tetto is going to die much quicker than if he was in his own cohort unit somewhere else.

Also, if the two Old Bloods die the Slann will have to move to the front rank and will become vulnerable.

If you think Temple Guard stink vs other army Special Units, wait until you see how regular Saurus Warriors stack up. Anything you can do to make Saurus Warriors better, you can also do for Temple Guard. But at least Temple Guard start with WS4, I2, S5, and can take a Magic Banner!

If you spend the other half of your points well, the regular Saurus block can work the way you have it setup (I would still put Tetto in his own cohort unit though!!)

 

[pendrell]

thank you for your answers, you convinced me to give tetto some more chances in a cohort. I ll try with that.

 

[NexS1]

I'd need to read the rulebook again, but from the Slann rules I have a feeling that it says something like "if there less than 5 models in the front rank with the "Guardians" special rule, the slann must be placed in the front rank".

I'm not sure on the exact wording, so if someone has the book handy it may be worth checking?

 

[Gringold]

If you put Tetto'eko in a Skrox unit, then by RAW, he doesn't get lookout sir because its a mixed unit instead of an infantry unit, right?


And regarding the Guardians rule, that is a Temple Guard rule, not a Slann Mage-Priest rule. You can put a Slann in the 2nd rank of a Saurus Warrior unit if you have full command + one Saurus character (taking up 4 of the 5 front spots), I think.

 

[hdctambien]

If you put Tetto'eko in a Skrox unit, then by RAW, he doesn't get lookout sir because its a mixed unit instead of an infantry unit, right?

As long as the unit contains 5 or more models of the character's troop type, he gets a Look Out Sir.

BRB 97: "a Look Out Sir! roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more models of the character's troop type within 3 inches"

"The character receives a greater degree of protection for being in the unit"

Note, there is an errata to this section in the FAQ. It should be changed to:

"a Look Out Sir! roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more rank and file models of the character's troop type within 3 inches"

I think Tetto still gets a LoS! roll in a unit of Skrox, RAW.

Of course, going hardcore RAW, Skrox can't be stomped. Even though the Spawn-kin rule explains how to resolve a stomp, the stomp rule lists exactly what types of units can be stomped, and "mixed unit" is not on that list. So, we know how to resolve a stomp on the unit, but unfortunately a stomp can never be targeted at that unit... (I don't play that way.. monsters stomp my skinks all the time...)

Note: I think 9th edition is going to come with some changes to how stomps work, and they probably won't care about troop type anymore (rather, it will be base-size that determines stomp/thunderstomp... see: the new Chaos Infantry models on 40x40 bases.)

 

[Mr Phat]

regarding tetto dying.

just keep him behind a hill, or out of sight.
most of his (useful) magic doesnt require line of sight and has a fairly long range.

 

[Gringold]

If you put Tetto'eko in a Skrox unit, then by RAW, he doesn't get lookout sir because its a mixed unit instead of an infantry unit, right?

As long as the unit contains 5 or more models of the character's troop type, he gets a Look Out Sir.

BRB 97: "a Look Out Sir! roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more models of the character's troop type within 3 inches"

"The character receives a greater degree of protection for being in the unit"

Note, there is an errata to this section in the FAQ. It should be changed to:

"a Look Out Sir! roll can be attempted, provided there is a friendly unit consisting of five or more rank and file models of the character's troop type within 3 inches"

I think Tetto still gets a LoS! roll in a unit of Skrox, RAW.

Of course, going hardcore RAW, Skrox can't be stomped. Even though the Spawn-kin rule explains how to resolve a stomp, the stomp rule lists exactly what types of units can be stomped, and "mixed unit" is not on that list. So, we know how to resolve a stomp on the unit, but unfortunately a stomp can never be targeted at that unit... (I don't play that way.. monsters stomp my skinks all the time...)

Note: I think 9th edition is going to come with some changes to how stomps work, and they probably won't care about troop type anymore (rather, it will be base-size that determines stomp/thunderstomp... see: the new Chaos Infantry models on 40x40 bases.)

So it sounds to me like Tetto'ekko gets a 4+ look out sir roll for being within 3" of a unit with at least five rank and file models of his type, when joined with a Skrox unit, but not a 2+ look out sir roll.

The 2+ look out sir roll, as detailed on page 99, has the following preconditions:

"If a character is hit by such an attack," PASS
"and he is in a unit of at least 5 rank-and-file models" PASS
"and he is of the same troop type as the unit" FAIL (because the Skrox unit is a special unit type called "mixed")

Granted, most tournament FAQs I've seen grant an infantry character a 2+ los when in a Skrox unit and most opponents will probably allow it, but a person bunkering their Tetto'ekko in a Skrox unit should be prepared for the possibility that it provides less protection than a plain Skink Cohort unit.