AoS Question concerning rerolling dice

[Nefertem]

After a long hiatus (yaeh, RL kept me too busy) I'm refreshing the rules before the arrival of the new battletome. I came across the following situation, and I'd like to hear your opinion. Per basic rules you reroll rolls before modification. Per warscroll card (Rippers) I can reroll failed hit and wound rolls. Is the "can" part of rerolling to-wound rolls mandatory for all fails? Because if taken in a Shadowstrike, i also get "+1" to to-wound rolls. So am I allowed to roll to-hit (rerolling fails), rolling to-wound, and only re-rolling 1s and 2s, as I get +1 after reroll. Or do I have to also reroll the 3s? Thanks a lot...

 

[Erta Wanderer]

After a long hiatus (yaeh, RL kept me too busy) I'm refreshing the rules before the arrival of the new battletome. I came across the following situation, and I'd like to hear your opinion. Per basic rules you reroll rolls before modification. Per warscroll card (Rippers) I can reroll failed hit and wound rolls. Is the "can" part of rerolling to-wound rolls mandatory for all fails? Because if taken in a Shadowstrike, i also get "+1" to to-wound rolls. So am I allowed to roll to-hit (rerolling fails), rolling to-wound, and only re-rolling 1s and 2s, as I get +1 after reroll. Or do I have to also reroll the 3s? Thanks a lot...

rerolls happen before modifiers so you have to reroll 3s as well this also happens if you have a -1 to hit 4s don't reroll and are just misses

 

[Nefertem]

Yes, that's clear. Question is as the text says you can reroll to wound rolls. Does this mean you choose the ones you'd like to reroll, or do you have to reroll all failed ones. I find it Kind of ambigious...

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Yes, that's clear. Question is as the text says you can reroll to wound rolls. Does this mean you choose the ones you'd like to reroll, or do you have to reroll all failed ones. I find it Kind of ambigious...

no you have to reroll all or nothing. there are some old exceptions but the wording on this one is not one of those

 

[Nefertem]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

 

[MackiMac]

Then we have played rules like this wrong in our gamling group. We have always played rules that say ”can” or ”may” as something optional.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Then we have played rules like this wrong in our gamling group. We have always played rules that say ”can” or ”may” as something optional.

it is optional if i had a +2 to my rolls and rolled no ones i don't want to reroll it so i can chose not to. you just can't chose to reroll some but not all of your dice

 

[ILKAIN]

@Erta Wanderer can you link where it says all or none? I tried to look itup but my work internet filter blocks Warhammer community sites, which includes the errata and faqs

 

[Erta Wanderer]

please disregard everything i have said up to this point as it is intierly backwards. im going to have to have words with my local judge but here is the FAQ that proves me wrong
Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied? A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!

 

[ILKAIN]

please disregard everything i have said up to this point as it is intierly backwards. im going to have to have words with my local judge but here is the FAQ that proves me wrong
Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied? A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!

I was pretty certain you could elect what dice to re roll and which not to when the phrasing was "can" or "may". im also certain that when it said "reroll all failed rolls" you can be screwed if some of those fails would have been hits when the mod gets applied

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I was pretty certain you could elect what dice to re roll and which not to when the phrasing was "can" or "may". im also certain that when it said "reroll all failed rolls" you can be screwed if some of those fails would have been hits when the mod gets applied

that would be it i just got thrown because a local judge is very adamant that rippers don't get the choice i think he just had a grudge

 

[ILKAIN]

that would be it i just got thrown because a local judge is very adamant that rippers don't get the choice i think he just had a grudge

yeah he's wrong. some ssssscaley boissss beat that asssss one to many timessss lol

 

[Killer Angel]

The whole "reroll before adjustment" rule, was meant to favor defensive abilities of the target that gives a malus to your attacks, without screwing the bonuses of the attacker: so, you cannot reroll "successful" rolls (even if you know those ones will fail after modifier), but you are not forced to reroll "unsuccessful" ones (when you know they are going to hit after modifier).

There are few cases when the ability of a single model let you re-roll ANY roll, and those are powerful exactly for that reason.

 

[Prince]

Good day fellow lizards. Another discussion came out after a battle with my friend. I read the re-rolls rule and tried to apply them. Below an example:
1. Vanari Sentinels have the sunmetal weapon ability (unmodified 6 on a hit roll is mortal wounds)
They target my Skink Starpriest who has the lookout sir (-1 hit for enemy shooting) thanks to Saurus warriors next to him.
The Sentinels roll some numbers and five of them show 6. Do I modify them as the rest of the dices? My friend claims that the 6 is a mortal wounds and I cannot do anything with them.

In my opinion I modify all of his dices -1 to hit even those which showed 6 and should be mortal wounds. Please explain me this as easiest as possible because of all the rules and different opinions I'm simply exhausted. I wanna play fair but I can't believe that his units can be so powerful and not countered by anything.

 

[Killer Angel]

Good day fellow lizards. Another discussion came out after a battle with my friend. I read the re-rolls rule and tried to apply them. Below an example:
1. Vanari Sentinels have the sunmetal weapon ability (unmodified 6 on a hit roll is mortal wounds)
They target my Skink Starpriest who has the lookout sir (-1 hit for enemy shooting) thanks to Saurus warriors next to him.
The Sentinels roll some numbers and five of them show 6. Do I modify them as the rest of the dices? My friend claims that the 6 is a mortal wounds and I cannot do anything with them.

In my opinion I modify all of his dices -1 to hit even those which showed 6 and should be mortal wounds. Please explain me this as easiest as possible because of all the rules and different opinions I'm simply exhausted. I wanna play fair but I can't believe that his units can be so powerful and not countered by anything.

Your friend is right.
Once the special abilities of attacks were triggered with modifiers, so bonuses and maluses could have staggering effects.
But now all the warscrolls are made with texts that explicitly say "unmodified rolls", so no matter the modifiers, if you roll a 6 the effect is triggered.
For example, the starpriest ability let us inflict mortal wound on unmodified 6s.
Anf Vanari Sentinels work in the same way:

 

[Prince]

Your friend is right.
Once the special abilities of attacks were triggered with modifiers, so bonuses and maluses could have staggering effects.
But now all the warscrolls are made with texts that explicitly say "unmodified rolls", so no matter the modifiers, if you roll a 6 the effect is triggered.
For example, the starpriest ability let us inflict mortal wound on unmodified 6s.
Anf Vanari Sentinels work in the same way:

View attachment 88001

But what about the sentence in the core rules. "Rules that refer to the result of an 'unmodified' dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rolls but before any modifiers are applied" 1st page re-rolls

So any artifacts which give a hero -2hit on shooting are useless against the sunmetal 6+ shooting? For me it just doesn't make sense that a whole army can inflict so many mortal wounds and you cannot do anything against it.

 

[Killer Angel]

But what about the sentence in the core rules. "Rules that refer to the result of an 'unmodified' dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rolls but before any modifiers are applied" 1st page re-rolls

So any artifacts which give a hero -2hit on shooting are useless against the sunmetal 6+ shooting? For me it just doesn't make sense that a whole army can inflict so many mortal wounds and you cannot do anything against it.

Well, to be fair it goes both ways... even our opponent cannot do that much if you shoot 80 times with 40 skinks buffed by the starpriest venom.
Altough i concede that a shooting unit that has this ability "built in" and inflicts MWs on to hit rolls (and not on "to wound" rolls) without the support of a hero, is pretty strong.

Anyway, the general rule is exactly as you read it.
1) Unmodified roll triggers after rerolls.
Let's say that those sentinels do 30 attacks, there are three 6s and five 1s.
But they are near the endless spells that lets them reroll those 1s. They do, and there's another 6. They inflict 4 MWs.

2) any modifier to those rolls (+ or -), is applied after. With a -1, some of the remaining shots are going to fail, but the MWs caused by the 6s have already been inflicted.
This works also to their detriment, of course. If a hero gives them a +1 to hit, their MWs still trigger on a natural 6, not on 5+!

 

[Prince]

Well, to be fair it goes both ways... even our opponent cannot do that much if you shoot 80 times with 40 skinks buffed by the starpriest venom.
Altough i concede that a shooting unit that has this ability "built in" and inflicts MWs on to hit rolls (and not on "to wound" rolls) without the support of a hero, is pretty strong.

Anyway, the general rule is exactly as you read it.
1) Unmodified roll triggers after rerolls.
Let's say that those sentinels do 30 attacks, there are three 6s and five 1s.
But they are near the endless spells that lets them reroll those 1s. They do, and there's another 6. They inflict 4 MWs.

2) any modifier to those rolls (+ or -), is applied after. With a -1, some of the remaining shots are going to fail, but the MWs caused by the 6s have already been inflicted.
This works also to their detriment, of course. If a hero gives them a +1 to hit, their MWs still trigger on a natural 6, not on 5+!

It simply saddens me that there is no way to save myself from such a rain of arrows. I don't have Skinks and won't be purchasing them just for the sake of counter shooting his army. Still Sentinels 30" range + see hidden units as visible Vs 16" range of Skink pipes...
I'll have to come up with something else, thanks for your reply to my problem, you helped me a lot!

 

[Putzfrau]

But what about the sentence in the core rules. "Rules that refer to the result of an 'unmodified' dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rolls but before any modifiers are applied" 1st page re-rolls

So any artifacts which give a hero -2hit on shooting are useless against the sunmetal 6+ shooting? For me it just doesn't make sense that a whole army can inflict so many mortal wounds and you cannot do anything against it.

Yeah its kind of LRLs "thing" and it's not my favorite lol. But the models are pointed around doing that and don't really do a ton of damage outside of that.

It simply saddens me that there is no way to save myself from such a rain of arrows. I don't have Skinks and won't be purchasing them just for the sake of counter shooting his army. Still Sentinels 30" range + see hidden units as visible Vs 16" range of Skink pipes...
I'll have to come up with something else, thanks for your reply to my problem, you helped me a lot!

LRL with 20+ sentinels is a competitive list. Seraphon also has the ability to make pretty nasty lists, but if you're playing a more casual list maybe you can ask your opponent to use less sentinels?