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8th Ed. Predatory Fighter & Supporting Attacks

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He was trying say something like; if you had a Great Weapon on a Kroxigor, the Stomp would not benefit from +2 Strength. Sort of a derail, but it was in parentheses as to not make it a main topic. Just pointing out that Supporting Attacks benefit from things like having a Halberd.

I think.
 
Ok, I can see that even though the stomp special rule uses the models base strength and benefits from no special rule as per the faq. But we're off topic haha
 
By some people's reckoning you dont get the bonus in 2nd/3rd ranks coz of the supporting attack rule


But by that thinking if a unit has hatred or poison attack rules would not get there special rule in supporting attacks rule as you only get the one extra attack with no special


???
 
Supporting attacks don't benefit from extra attacks granted from special rules. Hatred and poison do not apply here.
 
:rage:

Easy Chewie....

The game is meant to be one of fun... how is writing 9 pages of what may or may not accurate until we have an FAQ on the subject....

I mean.... before a game ask your opponent... 99.9% who are not morons will say yes you can use PF from second rank.

Ask before a tournie...

And then based on those decisions... play a fun game.

Geez...
 
^^ Posts like that are why we are at 9 pages. Inadvertently calling someone a moron does not help at all, just raises tempers.
 
My interpretation: I don't think GW would intend to write a rule that make use roll two seperate batches of dice every time we attack with our block troops, one handful that get PF and one that doesn't. I have been playing with supporting attacks benefiting from this rule.
 
Played a few games this past weekend, this issue was never even brought up, so I got my supporting attacks and the truth is, I never even rolled enough sixes (I run 6x4) to spill over into the second rank. I agree that RAW takes it from supporting attackes, however, consider that if you have a 6x4 unit of saurus and only roll 5 sixes, they all count for PF. If you roll 7 sixes, unlikely, but possible, you would have to then you only get 6 extra attacks as the 7th is lost to supporting attacks.

Does this make sense to anyone else? Why roll separately, just know that you can't get more attacks from PF than you have frontage, until it is FAQ'd that is. I believe that RAI will be that supporting attacks benefit from PF.

I have emailed GW about this as well and also about Skink Chiefs on Flyers joining Flyers.

Not to start another RAW v. RAI war, but what about Tiktaq'to? His rules don't state that he can join units of Terradon Riders so according to the BRB he can't, as there is not direct conflict the BRB>AB. The rules for Mask of Heavens implies that he can, but nowhere does it specifically state that he can. I emailed GW on this as well and will be keeping printed copies of the replies in my AB until FAQ'd.

Sorry in advance if this causes 9 more pages of RAW v. RAI.
 
XulToch said:
Played a few games this past weekend, this issue was never even brought up, so I got my supporting attacks and the truth is, I never even rolled enough sixes (I run 6x4) to spill over into the second rank. I agree that RAW takes it from supporting attackes, however, consider that if you have a 6x4 unit of saurus and only roll 5 sixes, they all count for PF. If you roll 7 sixes, unlikely, but possible, you would have to then you only get 6 extra attacks as the 7th is lost to supporting attacks.

Does this make sense to anyone else? Why roll separately, just know that you can't get more attacks from PF than you have frontage, until it is FAQ'd that is. I believe that RAI will be that supporting attacks benefit from PF.
Click to expand...

You've never played 40k haven't you? It's easy to roll seperately. If you run 6x4 with a champion, you 1st roll 13 dice to see if you get anything from predatory fighter. You then roll 12 more attacks for the 2nd and 3rd rank (if you have spears). You can also use dice of different colors. It's really not much of a hassle.

I tend to think that it's how PF should work according to the mechanics of 8th edition, but I could be wrong.
 
Fantasy is not 40K. It is much more of a skirmish game and small squag game, like LOTR. Fantasy deals generally with much larger units and combats with a lot of dice rolls. In that environment, as discussed in the BRB, rolling a lot of dice at once speeds up the game and is part of the game design. Never-the-less, the real issue is RAW v. RAI. I think RAI is absolutely obvious but RAW is not. You can read it both ways and the AB does over-rule the BRB. I interpret the BRB like on supporting attacks as base attacks, not additional bonuses and re-rolls resulting from the rolls to hit or wound. I've read and reread the language now in the BRB and AB and the issue is clear as mud and needs an FAQ.
 
Compare -
Predatory Fighter
"Whenever a model with this special rule rolls a 6 To Hit in close combat, it immediately makes another Attack;....."

Red Fury
"For each unsaved Wound that the Vampire causes in close combat, it can immediately make a further Attack."

When's the last time you honestly thought a Vampire in the second rank could benefit from Red Fury? This is not an AB trumps BRB situation because there is no language in the PF rule that says it overrides the general prohibition on multiple attacks from the second rank.

The High Elf book under Martial Prowess made it clear it intended to override normal rules by explicitly saying "one extra rank than normal." If PF had such similar language of "than normal", then the BRB override makes more sense.
 
I love it -- great comparison.

As much as I wish PF worked for subsequent ranks, I have to agree that as written it does not.
 
We'll have an answer soon I think. They took down the old Lizardmen faq so hopefully a new one will be going up.
 
OmegaHavoc said:
We'll have an answer soon I think. They took down the old Lizardmen faq so hopefully a new one will be going up.
Click to expand...

Hopefully faster than the High Elf FAQ which after more than 3 months after the book release is still not out.

Even so they have still not put out an FAQ until at least a month after release.
 
Since I skipped through most of this topic:

If you roll all your attacks at once (as promoted by the Fast Dice rules), then how do you are your opponent know if it's the supporters or the front rank that rolls 6's. I'm not going to roll them seperately.

I don't see how this has become a debate.
 
Clarkarias said:
Since I skipped through most of this topic:

If you roll all your attacks at once (as promoted by the Fast Dice rules), then how do you are your opponent know if it's the supporters or the front rank that rolls 6's. I'm not going to roll them seperately.

I don't see how this has become a debate.
Click to expand...

That's not a fair representation of the Fast Dice rules. The references on BRB 41 and 51 are for convenience, not an attempt to bend the rules. Fast Dice is for models subject to the same effects. Here, PF would clearly have different effects on different models, much like when:
(1) shooting attacks where some models are in short range. Do you Fast Dice your blowpipes as all in short range or long range?
(2) do you fast dice against Ogres when they have characters in the front? Clearly you shouldn't due to different stats of the models they are attacking.
(3) do you fast dice when models in an overlapping rank can only hit the champion in the unit? No because those wounds usually target the champ and not carryover.
(4) do you fast dice when other special rules are on the table, such as the Other Trickster's Shard? No because wounds caused will have different effects (so why are you treating hits differently?).

Fast Dice rules don't explicitly cover the above situations by a strict reading yet you must observe those rules. You would roll the front rank separately from the back ranks.

Finally, the side notes are practical advice. See BRB ix ("To clarify rules along the way you will find both illustrative diagrams and helpful side notes with practical advice scattered throughout the section."). Don't turn practical advice into impractical results.
 
The Fast Dice recommendation is trumped by the rules that one must separately allocate attacks to different models with different characteristics. For example, allocating attacks on models in base contact with other trickster's shard as opposed to other models. There are a number of examples where one must diviide the attacks of the rankd and file unit up to account for differences in characteristics.
 
(waiting for the dust to clear)
1314649924_chewbacca.jpg
 
This hasn't been brought up yet:

A Predatory Fighter rule existed in the 6th Ed. Lizardmen armybook for Saurus Warriors. It limited attacks from supporting ranks to one while the front rank was free to use its profile attack value (of two). It explains that "Saurus Warriors are vicious fighters whose bodies and armament have been created to maximize their fighting potential in close combat." Going on to say "this instinctive and predatory fighting style works best at close range", justifying why only the front rank gets more attacks.

Precedent that attacks from the Predatory Fighter Special Rule affects front rank differently than subsequent ranks had already been set for Lizardmen.
 
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