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7th Ed. Poison

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Skink

Klladdy

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I have a question about poison...
In the rule book it says something about not being able to poison the enemy when it requires a 7+ to poison. My question is what puts the poison role at 7+....

This is my logic right now...

two things that worsen the roles are BS reduction or a hit modifier unless i missed one that i don't know about.
BS reduction
Skink BS 3 reduced to BS 2 or 1 making the skinks role of 4+ reduced to 5+ or 6+... how would this effect poison???
To hit modifier
Skink requires a 4+ to hit. He gets a -1 modifier making him need a 5+
rolls a 4 but gets a -1 to hit giving him a final failing roll of 3.. how would this effect poison???
Did i miss something???
 
I'm having trouble understanding your question but I'll give the answer a shot. If I'm not clear, feel free to ask for clarification.


My question is what puts the poison role at 7+....
Click to expand...

The question is a little strange because technically there is no 'poison roll'. There is a To-Hit roll, which when and if you roll a 6 on the to hit roll, the poison rule states that those attacks automatically wound.

Example: 1
Your skinks start out with a 4+ to hit (BS3).
They've moved this round +1
They're firing 2x shots at their target +1

This brings the To-Hit roll to a 6+. Any hits will automatcially wound as well, in this example.

Example: 2
Now, lets talk about what happens if your target was at long range from example 1.
BSe = 4+ To-Hit
Moved +1 = 5+ To-Hit
Double shots +1 = 6+ To-Hit
Long Range +1 = 7+ To-Hit

Wait, how do we get 7s to hit on a D6? First roll a D6, any 6s that you roll are picked up and rolled again. On a 4+ you have scored a hit, according to the rules. So in order to hit on a 7+, you'll need to roll "6s & 4s" as we say (interestingly enough 8+ would be "6s & 5s").

What the rule you're asking about is saying is this.

If you need more that 6+ to hit, you may never poison the target (autowound). So if you need 7s or even 8s to hit, you can't count an additional 6 as a poisoned attack.

Hope this helps.
 
Barotok has it. There are more than two possible to-hit modifiers, and indeed it can take your roll to above 6.

BS3
Over half range
moved
X2multiple shot
shooting at skirmishers/lone US1 character

Gives an 8 to hit. There are also several banners/items around that give you -1 or -2 to hit, and don't forget soft and hard cover can increase the roll as well. So poison only works if, after modifiers, you need a 6 or better to hit, any worse and poison won't do anything.
 
Sorry if i wasn't very clear.... what i meant was that i read somewhere that you can't poison skirmishers for the hit modifier that effects shooting them... sorry that confused me into believing that modifiers mess it up from that post i read somewhere.....

Thanks
 
Are you asking about shooting at skirmishers? If so, skirmishers can be poisoned but will need an additional +1 to hit for being in a loose 'skirmishing' formation. This is a normal to-hit modifier for shooting though which has nothing to do with them also having poisoned attacks.

In other words, having a poisoned attack does not make you immune to poison.

*edit* Post clarity and additional statment.
 
So what you read probably meant that skirmishers are harder to poison due to the -1 to hit them, still possible as long as the roll needed doesn't go above 6. Skirmishers aren't immune to poison and any modifiers will not automatically remove poison unless the roll goes above 6. I think that was your question?
 
Klladdy said:
Sorry if i wasn't very clear.... what i meant was that i read somewhere that you can't poison skirmishers for the hit modifier that effects shooting them... sorry that confused me into believing that modifiers mess it up from that post i read somewhere.....

Thanks
Click to expand...

As the others said, it becomes very hard to get poisoned shots off against skirmishers using blowpipes.

This is where javelins are better... they take no long range or move and shoot penalty, so you will always be hitting on a 5+. Their range is only 8", sure, but skinks can still move 6 inches giving you a threat range of 14" and it doesn't hurt your accuracy.

Trying to shoot skirmishers with blowpipes is a fairly futile thing, as you can only take one additional penalty to-hit and still poison the skirmishers. Want to use your full 12" range? Better not move them that turn, and you still can't double-shot them and do poison. If you want to move your skirmishers, you have to make sure they get within 6 inches of the target, and you still can't double shoot. Your only chance to get an effective double shot off against skirmishers is if they are already within 6" and you don't move to get near them (in other words, only if your opponent is foolish!)

One thing to remember also... it is ALWAYS better to fire a single shot that will hit (and poison) on a 6+ than to attempt to double-shoot hitting on 7+. Even against enemies with low Toughness, the numbers are way better for single fire on 6+. Just something to keep in mind when using blowpipes.
 
No, what i meant was that i heard (or thought i heard) was that the poisoning went from happening on a 6+ to happening on a 7+ if there are modifiers like moving.....

Sorry wasn't very clear..... I have a little trouble putting what i think into words and sentences that make sense sometimes....
 
Poison hasn't changed from 6+ as far as I can remember and is still 6+ in all the new rules (7th).
 
just a thought that is kinda related taking ranked skinks then reforming them like archers and having them pepper the flanks of units since reforming is just a move might be a useful tactic
 
The only difference is that Skink Cohorts will be using Javelins to attack instead of blowpipes. You'll be looking at a 4" shorter range, so position carefully.
 
Expanding frontage will take half the movement, so you'll still have 3 inches to wheel or move (I recommend wheeling beforehand). So your threat range is 11 inches when you do this (8 inch range + 3 inch move/wheel). This is really nice to be able to pull off, since it gives your skinks some good options depending on what they have in front of them. Some skrimishers that are nasty in combat might be blocking their path... just line up 10 across and pepper them from 8 inches, ready to flee or continue on should they panic the target.
 
On a related note, the chameleon skink special character from our beloved army book, Oxyotl, has improved poisons which he gathered during a hike through the realm of chaos. This grants him the ability to auto-wound on a 5+ hit roll.
Now, I read somewhere that this means that if he needs a 6+ to hit, he will not auto-wound, in the same way as a normal skink will never auto-wound if he needs a 7+ to hit. This seems very stupid to me, as Oxyotl's poisons are advertised as being superior to those of his skink brethren. Can anyone comment on this?
 
Uggh, this thought crossed my mind and at one point, I think I had been wondering about why it hadn't been brought up here on the forums yet. I'll start by saying that this rule is one of the worst possible designs GW could have come up with in the case of a special character. Aside from being a poorly designed character, the 5+ poison rule is great if you need 5's of less to hit.

My logic argues that no matter how powerfull his poisons may be, they still have to hit first. If Oxyotl needs 6s or 7s to hit then rolling a 5 would not autowound, since the score didn't even hit. If I had to make a special character around the poison rule, it would be 6s would be poisoned as normal and 7s (and only 7s) would also autowound. I'd also give him a +1 BS instead of a 5+ poisoned attack.

My opinion on the poison mechanic is that it's flawed and difficult to work with, especially when you go to design special rules around it. I think it's a great rule, but I find myself explaining the mechanic to newer players, more often than not.
 
Lycanthrope said:
Now, I read somewhere that this means that if he needs a 6+ to hit, he will not auto-wound, in the same way as a normal skink will never auto-wound if he needs a 7+ to hit.
Click to expand...

While the entire mess of Oxyotl's poisons is annoying, there is absolutely nothing in the rules to support a claim like this. Reference both Master Predator (Oxyotl's rule page 71 army book) with Poisoned Attacks (Warhammer Rulebook page 95).

If we are looking at it in pure RAW, Master Predator really has no effect...

Lizardmen Army Book Page 71 said:
All attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe are Poisoned on a To Hit roll of 5+.
Click to expand...

And the necessary reference to Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook:

A warrior with poisoned attacks will wound his target automatically If he scores a 6 when rolling to hit in either the shooting or close combat phases, or sometimes both. The dice itself must score a 6 - a lower number increased by modifiers to a 6 does not count.

If the poisoned attack needs a 7+ to hit the rule has no effect.
Click to expand...

So, first to debunk that absurdity that you read somewhere. Nowhere does it say, imply, state or in any way reference a change or exception to the 7+ to hit rule for Oxyotl. Poison rules are firm: A natural 6 on the dice to hit causes auto wound. 7+ poison doesnt apply. The end.

Ok, now to the absurdity of our character... where exactly does the 5+ come in to play? If the rule was written "All attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe are Poisoned on a natural dice role of 5 or 6" then it would actually make sense. If they wrote "All attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe are Poisoned on a natural dice role of 5 or 6 and the To Hit is achieved" it would make even more sense.

So tell me, what does "5+" have to do with Poison... at all?

While it certainly seems clear that they intended Poison to apply if he rolled a 5 or 6 on the dice and the To Hit was met, it doesnt say that. Poison isnt determined by To Hit! That's the kicker. The only thing To Hit numbers have to do with Poison is limiting Poison to below a 7+ To Hit.

By RAW... Oxyotl functions exactly like any other Skink Skirmisher when it comes to Poison. If the target needs a 5+ or 6+ to hit, then he gets Poison... which requires a natural 6 on the dice. Pretty useful, huh?

(Oh and Lycanthrope please dont feel that this was targeted at you in any way. I am so frustrated with the authors that dont even know their own rules.)
 
Heh, I see what you mean by the wording. 'IF he needs a 5+ to hit, then he gets poison (6+)' could be a way to interprete the RAW.

Crappy rule, I would play it so that if he needs a 6 to hit, then 5 doesn't poison (you need to hit before you can poison...) but neither does 7, so it would just revert to normal poison.

Maybe a better rule would have been to make him like the TK archers, so no matter what modifiers there are he always hits on a 5+ (maybe 4+ for his skill) then there wouldn't be any trouble with his poisoning on 5+. But that is academic now.
 
agreed, and can someone please tell me why Strewart is a champion? its driving me crazy!!!!
 
After reading snowywlf's response that was posted directly after mine, I was slightly concerned that maybe mine was misunderstood.

So, first to debunk that absurdity that you read somewhere. Nowhere does it say, imply, state or in any way reference a change or exception to the 7+ to hit rule for Oxyotl.
Click to expand...
Instead of opening a debate upon this subject, in which Snow is correct anyways, my post was not clear that I meant that 7+ is always 'No Poison'. If I were to rewrite the rules for the character, I would consider making a 7 still poisonable. But since I'm not rewriting the character rules, it's not worth talking about.

Poison isnt determined by To Hit!
Click to expand...
If I may play devils advocate here, I would argue that it does. The To-Hit roll is the determinate factor in wether or not the target is successfully poisoned or even hit for that matter. With our skinks, our hits are almost always poisoned anyways though (BS3).

After snow's post, I was able to re-read the rule more clearly and now I want to know why this question was not addressed in the FAQ.

Here's some concerns that I have though. Perhaps I'm rephrasing your question snow, and for that I apologize. The syntax states "ALL attacks made by Oxyotl's blowpipe". To me this means that any attack role of a natural 5 or 6, that subsequently hits the target, counts as a poisoned attack. If you needed 4s to hit, and rolled a 4, that would not poison your target, but your 5s or 6s would.

We really should have this discussion split into a thread for Oxyotl.
 
Interesting. Thanks for the replies snowy and barotok!
One could hope that our beloved authors would make an addition to the FAQ, though I would imagine that any right-minded player would concur that Oxyotl's poison rule suffers from sloppy writing, and therefore also that a natural 5 or 6 which scores a hit also auto-wounds.

Cheers o/
 
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