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8th Ed. Playing Without Salamanders

What lists are you playing? I did not see unitl after the reply where the army has an oldblood on carni and, thus no slann. That is kind of a problem. At T5 with 4+ scaly skin and lower I on the carni and oldblood, the carni dies to execs because the execs hit on 3's and wound on 3's leaving no AS. Once the carni is dead, the AS of the oldblood is reduced and the oldblood becomes vulnerable to KB. Even against witches, at 4+ AS, half the poison wounds get through to the carni and witches will roll a lot of those in combat and they can out CR a single oldblood in combat. You really have to combo charge witches with monsters with high AS like the steg and basti and rack up thunderstomp damage on witches. 3 units of single sallies would do wonders because it is likely two will get off shooting and kill a lot of execs, BG, sisters out of combat, and witches. You also have to have lots of small skink units to control the flow of combat and movement in general and whttile stuff down to make the LM army in the new book effective anyway.

Yes, my youngest son (18, who admittedly is a better player than me) would likely beats my dark elves with his LM. army with two sally units of one and two sallies each, large TG unit, and skink cohorts. His oldblood can kill my characters and avoid the KB and multiwound peg master and execs by staying in a saurus or TG unit with full command and avoiding KB execs.


I've seen what fiery convocation and sallies can do to dark elf infantry hordes.

If I run death hag plus cauldron, I fear the death spells taking out a detah hag on cauldron but that requires again a good Slann with access to that lore or at least the signature spell. Once the hag dies, the cauldron has no LD and dies too quickly (4+ ward save) to the lore of death signature spell. If I have lore of life, I can keep healing up the hag and cauldron, which is annoying.
 
So having said all that, what is your take on the viability of a army without any Salamanders (and without a Slann) taking on a Dark Elf army like the sort you see in my battle reports?
 
In our book, our counters to large infantry blocks are:

- Slann magic
- Salamanders
- Temple guard horde (no Slann)
- Large block of Ripperdactyls
- Redirectors

If you don't bring an appropriate counter to large infantry blocks somewhere in your army, it's not just Witch Elf hordes that are going to give you problems. Hordes of pretty much any serious infantry will be very bad, including White Lions, executioners, nurgle halberdiers, plaguebearers / grave guard / greatsword dwarves /hammerers, etc. When combined with artillery, the matchup becomes very bad.

As I mentioned in another post, the Monster Mash list is essentially a strategy of bringing lots of Rock. That's fine, but if you're going to do that, you need to accept that you will lose against a list that brings lots of Paper.
 
RipperDerek said:
You're not winning after getting rid of 1 one rank. Your build averages 3 wounds, they have 3 combat res and a musician. You lose by 1.

More importantly, they can / often do have more than 4 ranks.
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I'm a little confused where the musician comes in.
 
Putzfrau said:
RipperDerek said:
You're not winning after getting rid of 1 one rank. Your build averages 3 wounds, they have 3 combat res and a musician. You lose by 1.

More importantly, they can / often do have more than 4 ranks.
Click to expand...


I'm a little confused where the musician comes in.
Click to expand...

Musicians win ties.
If you do 4 wounds, combat is a tie, and the musician pushes combat in favor of the dark elves.
You have to do 5 wounds to strip Frenzy.

-Matt

Edit: correct steadfast for frenzy.
 
Sleboda: This is purely hypothetical as I don't run them myself, but could double-temaing Bastiladons take on the Witch Brigade? Maybe one with the Solar Engine and one with the Arc of Sotek? That's only a couple of hundred points and fits into the monster mash theme you're going for.

T5 & 2+ AS should keep them relatively safe from lots of S3 attacks (poisioned or otherwise). S4 vs T3 elves will still give you some wounds from attacks and thunderstomps and you can add in a couple of S10 attacks too that might worry a character. Then you've got some variable snake attacks that will do some damage (S2 vs T3) too.

Add in some potential whittling down damage from the Solar engine on the way in (with no slann and not a lot in the way of magic, you can try and IF it with no real comeback from the miscast table). The Solar Basti will also help your Saurus/TG heavy list by boosting their Initiative.

Is that an option? Anyone run something like this?
 
laribold said:
Sleboda: This is purely hypothetical as I don't run them myself, but could double-temaing Bastiladons take on the Witch Brigade? Maybe one with the Solar Engine and one with the Arc of Sotek? That's only a couple of hundred points and fits into the monster mash theme you're going for.

T5 & 2+ AS should keep them relatively safe from lots of S3 attacks (poisioned or otherwise). S4 vs T3 elves will still give you some wounds from attacks and thunderstomps and you can add in a couple of S10 attacks too that might worry a character. Then you've got some variable snake attacks that will do some damage (S2 vs T3) too.

Add in some potential whittling down damage from the Solar engine on the way in (with no slann and not a lot in the way of magic, you can try and IF it with no real comeback from the miscast table). The Solar Basti will also help your Saurus/TG heavy list by boosting their Initiative.

Is that an option? Anyone run something like this?
Click to expand...
Going to init 2/3 doesn't do much against an Init 5 ASF enemy.

Against a horde, they still lose. Without armor piercing, they take 3 wounds in combat (on average).
And dish out ~6.
With a charge, that's 7 vs 7 (dark elves have ranks and standard) and you lose by musician.
If he has the razor banner, it's uglier.

If you can thin the witch horde a little, or get a flank charge, you've got a chance.
But basically, we're back where we started, you need to shoot up/magic a witch horde before you try and engage it.

-Matt
 
olderplayer said:
If I run death hag plus cauldron, I fear the death spells taking out a detah hag on cauldron but that requires again a good Slann with access to that lore or at least the signature spell. Once the hag dies, the cauldron has no LD and dies too quickly (4+ ward save) to the lore of death signature spell. If I have lore of life, I can keep healing up the hag and cauldron, which is annoying.
Click to expand...

You'll notice that the BRB FAQ says that "unmodified" leadership is the highest in the unit.
So even after killing the Death Hag, you can still use the witches LD8 (in the unit) to resist spirit leech.
Additionally, the latest BRB FAQ on characters says you can use Inspiring Presence for spirit leech (and mind razor), so if your general is near the cauldron, you are using his Ld9/10.
Finally, the Cauldron has a 4+ ward, and also has MR1. That gives it a 3+ ward vs spells.
 
laribold said:
Sleboda: This is purely hypothetical as I don't run them myself, but could double-temaing Bastiladons take on the Witch Brigade? Maybe one with the Solar Engine and one with the Arc of Sotek? That's only a couple of hundred points and fits into the monster mash theme you're going for.
Click to expand...
=> Funny you should mention that as it's one of the things I've been considering. I'd probably go with two Solar Engines though so I could blast them as they come toward me. Then, when they got close, I'd turn the Bastiladons around so that their rears were facing the witch elves. You would have to line them up just right so that he could not avoid charging both monsters, so it might be tricky, but you would have to do that if you want the S10 Attacks. Like I discovered last game, relying on a combat reform to turn around after combat has started is not a plan upon which you can count.

The biggest problem is the hag. She is going to have the Obsidian Blade if the DE player has any sense at all since the only weakness of the Witch+Cauldron unit is armor. With her 5 attacks she is quite likely to kill one entire Bastiladon each round of combat.
 
The point about MR1 plus 4+ ward on cauldron is valid but spirit leech uses the unmodified LD of the target (which is a single model) not the unit. Once the death hag is dead, the LD of the model is often 0 which means a lot of wounds on the cauldron from spirit leach and some will fail. It is not great but a few dark elf players have said that this is surprisingly effetive against armies with lore of death mages after the death hag has been removed from play.

One way to run a monster mash list against dark elves without a TG unit is to run a basic slann with some skinks and then run a scar vet on carnosaur and an oldblood on foot or on a cold one. If you are running a carmosaur, then it must go after multiple wound models and take advantage of its S7 to be points efficient.; otherwise the carmi is not points efficient as a monster with only 4 attacks (5 once blood frenzy kicks in) at WS3 because its S7 and multiple wounds ability is kind of wasted on infantry. The problem is that 5 wounds with T5 and only 4+ AS doesn't hold up well against witches hitting first with lots of attacks with re-rolls to hit and poison and re-roll 1's to wound or execs with S6 hitting on 3's and re-rolling 1's to wound. That means trying to kill the death hag and cauldron or a master or dreadlord usually. If you choose not to run a Slann, then you really need two lvl 2 skink priests with beasts to deal with the tough stuff out there and hope forcertain spells depending on what they are running, one priest has the cube and the other a dispel scroll to deal with strong magic lists, which includes many dark elf armies. Curse of Anraheir will really slow down a dark elf horde unit (assuming yoy play that even open ground counts terrain within the term "all terrain"). Savage beast of horros is huge for going against the cauldron and pann's impenetrable pelt is huge against executioners for a scar vet and carni model. Wyssan's will cut down on the loss rate to even execs, which are S6, so raising saurus to T5 and scar vets and oldbloods to T6 cuts the wound rates.

In a monster mash list, the key to beating witches is to get the charge and to run multiple monsters models with high AS and high T into them and rack up the stomps and possibly impact hits. That means stegs which also benefit by being stubborn. Breaking frenzy cuts down the number of attacks after the first round of combat. Two stegs charging a single witch elf unit would rack up 2D6+2 impact hits at S5 or S6 before the witches get to attack. Even thought the crew hit os 5's they wound on 4's, so they will get in some damage. Also, notice that there is no monsters and handlers rule on them, so the crew stays. If they have the cauldron, kill the death hag with normal attacks if it has a magic weapon or khainite gitt or is a threat at S4, otherwise focus thunderstomps on the witches. The steg works well because of the impact hits and the thunderstomps but it doesn't do as much after that point, so it needs support or it will die quicklly after the first round of combat. The dark elf counters to stegs in the LM army are reaper bolt throwers, lore of shadow pit of shaeds spell, and execs and avoiding taking a charge by them. Note that Bastis are only M4 and S4 with 3 attacks and much better to bring up in a supporting role against lower S infantry units already tied up in combat for their thunderstomps Since bolt thrower shots in single shot mode ignore armour, the basit gets killed by repear bolt hits too easily.
 
Olderplayer, I think you need to read the FAQ on unmodified leadership, and then also on the spell Spirit Leech specifically.
 
And how the FAQ contradicts itself on what Unmodified Leadership is and how it is used?

Unmodified Leadership SHOULD work exactly how olderplayer says....why GW would ever define it as anything else is beyond my understanding.

EDIT: Although I think they theorized that Ld modifiers (such as Iceshard Blizzard or Doom & Darkness) should apply, then also other modifiers should work too. Perhaps 'Unmodified' is a misnomer...I'd prefer the whole "Unmodified Leadership" term be removed from the game come 9th Ed. and just apply Leadership tests in all cases that term is currently used (if you want an ability to take tests at a lower Ld, then just apply a leadership modifier like the above spells).
 
I agree it SHOULD work that way...but it is not at all clear that it does.
 
hardyworld said:
And how the FAQ contradicts itself on what Unmodified Leadership is and how it is used?

Unmodified Leadership SHOULD work exactly how olderplayer says....why GW would ever define it as anything else is beyond my understanding.
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Unmodified is simply without +/- modifiers. The General's leadership(or the leadership of a character in the unit) is not a modification of leadership, but an alternate value available for use, which means that it is usable for the purposes of spirit leech This means that the "Unmodified" leadership of the cauldron (or the hag) would be 10 if they have a dreadlord in range (which they will ~90% of the time to help control frenzy).

Actually, nvm. the FAQ specifically omits the General's inspiring presence.

"Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise."
 
Yes, and the Spirit Leech FAQ says the opposite. This is why I brought it up.
 
Since we're talking about salamanders. I'm not experienced in using them, so what is the optimal distance to have them in when you want to shoot a large block of.. something?
 
Pinktaco said:
Since we're talking about salamanders. I'm not experienced in using them, so what is the optimal distance to have them in when you want to shoot a large block of.. something?
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i've found about 6-8 inches is good for me.

The actual best range should be around the as well, as with the template, and the sides of the dice, the optimum hit's will happen between 6 and 8 inches, at least for me.

Flank hits use other "rules" as you get a much deeper target, i'm assuming higher is better there. (and it gives a more flexible salamander position.)
 
Hmm.. I'll have to try it out. They'll have plenty of targets tonight agianst my friends O&G army. Thanks for the help though. :)
 
VampTeddy said:
i've found about 6-8 inches is good for me.
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=> Oh, sure, you SAY that, but then you see one that's 10-12 and the truth is revealed...


:)
 
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