8th Ed. Planning my biggest game ever

[Scalenex]

So I'm going to play a big campaign game. We have a lot of tiny armies running around the map skirmishing but my main opponent (Warriors of Chaos) and I both agree that we prefer large games so we are working on agreeing to combine everything into a big battle.

Somewhere between 4000 and 6000 points. We haven't finalized the points size yet.

What would you guys bring?

This player has the following tendencies in our games of 500-2500 points.

1) He prefers Mark of Tzeentch for characters and Chaos shrines, he has a lot of Ward Save 3+ characters running around that rerolls 1
2) He favours lots of cavalry. Marauder horsemen, chariots (both kinds), and of course Skullcrushers of Khorne in nearly every list. Not sure if he has regular Chaos Knights.
3) He keeps his infantry fairly lean. I believe he has a mild preference for Mark of Slaanesh infantry.
4) He doesn't rely on Hellcannons but he has them and I'm SURE they'll be here for our big battle.

I'm thinking two Slann, one with Metal and one with High Magic. Maybe Metal and Shadow so I can move my kitted characters against the things they counter Two Temple Guard bunkers, one with the Razor Standard and the other with, I don't know, Gleaming Pennant, Eternal Flame, War? I'm thinking three or four Skink priests to caddy magic items and aim direct damage spells.

I plan to go relatively light on Skinks. He's too skilled to redirect much and my shooting won't penetrate his armor. Basically one Skirmisher unit per Skink Priest and a Chameleon Skink unit or two just in case I want to run interference (and having Scouts gives me a chance under campaign rules to alter the terrain set up before play!). Plan to fill most of the Core with Saurus Warriors, a mix of sword and board and spears (because my model collection is about half and half there).

I'm thinking two units of 7 Kroxigor because I have a LOT of Kroxigor and haven't used them much. I figure S7 hits will let me get some consistent wounds on his very tough things. Six Kroxigor maximizes attacks on a reasonable frontage and the seventh is to absorb hits so I don't lose attacks too fast.

I'm thinking two Oldbloods. One on foot with the Blade of Realities since every game I played against this opponent seems to involve one or two characters with crazy saving throws that b-line for my main block. The other on a Cold One or Carnosaur with the Other Trickster's Shard. Maybe a few cheap Scar Veterans cowboys with Great Weapons

I'm not convinced a Skink chief will hit hard enough to affect Chaos so I'm thinking no Ripper chief. I am considering a Stegadon BSB for the 18 range but then that's one fewer magical standard.

I have around 12,000 points of Lizardmen so I can field about anything in any quasi-reasonable quantity, except Batiladons and Carnosaurs (which I have one each of) and flyers (which I have five of). Special characters are not allowed. This is guy is a more skilled player than me, so I am open to unleashing the cheese if possible though not too much cheese because as a human being is very nice and personable and I want to keep playing with him when the campaign is over.

I'm open to any and all suggestions.

 

[Zwuppie]

Well to start...

Nobody plays these large games very often, so he also won't i suppose! The dual slann is a great choice in these values! However i should bring High magic (because you can change spells when cast) and death or shadow! You have to play something like purple sun to kill those 3+ wardsave guys! Also give one of your slanns a BSB, ye you don't have that 18"bsb range, but he is much more viable, but split up the general and bsb! Less important magic lore is your bsb and more important lore is your general! Because you want to shut down lizardmen magic and bsb so he can't take both by killing one unit.

I should make the slann blocks as following:

Slann Mage-Priest w/ Loremaster High magic (General)
- Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence
- Channeling staff, Obsidian Amulet

40 Temple Guard
- Full Command

Slann Mage-Priest w/ Lore of death or shadow (BSB)
- Soul of Stone, Resevoir of Eldritch Energy
- Skavenpelt Banner?, Scroll

49 Temple Guard
- Full Command
- Razor Standard?

Oldblood
- Light Armour, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Other Trickster Shard

Set the oldblood in the unit but on the narrow end of the unit so he won't touch your slann! Once the enemy had re-rolled his succesful ward save, he can't re-roll it again if he rolls a 1! And you have a oldblood with frenzy (restrain on Ld 9 with reroll on 3D6! ) and armour piercing, so Str 6, 1+ rerollable, -4 armour save for enemy, enemy reroll succesful wardsaves (Demons!!)

I think this is a great base for your army!

Further i think 2x40 saurus warriors, flanking rippers, one bastiladon definately!!! stegadons (2-3?) maybe engine? NO MORE MAGIC YOU HAVE MANY MAGIC RIGHT NOW!!

 

[heuningby]

There is space for an oldblood cowboy with Fencers blades, Glittering scales, Crown of command/a ward save. Perfect roadblock to hold up a big heavy cavalry unit.

A troglodon might actually be worth it in this game...

 

[Anton_S]

I played a 10k game a couple of weeks ago with Lizardmen facing 5k Dark Elves and 5k WoC. We were two players on each side but we both played Lizards on our side.

We had one Slann each. I loved not having to choose between High Magic and Wandering Deliberations -- we could have both! That's 16 Spells. And don't forget to use the ability to swap spells between the mages at the start of the magic phase so you have the key spell on the right Slann, especially if you're playing on a big table.

I ran my Slann in a Skirmisher unit right behind his Temple Guard, ready to join them if threatened. He survived. My ally ran his in the Temple Guard unit from the start. He died. Maybe coincidence, maybe not.

We had 3 Bastiladons and 3 Stegadons in total. They were all great. I loved throwing one dice at the laser and watch the WoC player agonise over whether to risk it or not. Anything from 4 and up is pretty bad for WoC.

Sharpened Horns make Skullcrushers behave. They may have a longer charge range, but you have Skirmishers. I did get a charge off on them with an Ancient Stegadon, rolled high for impact and they just melted.

We would cast Arcane Unforging every turn as a priority to make a Tzeentch Lord and DP a bit weaker. Although they both ultimately survived the game they had to adapt to no longer being nigh unkillable.

Get a Carnosaur. Scar-Vet is enough. D3 wounds at S7 is golden against many things WoC might bring. Just don't charge front centre against strong units. Flank or corner alongside another unit is the way to go or the Carnosaur dies. Consider Other Trickster's Shard on the Scar-Vet unless you need it for an Oldblood.

Speaking of Oldbloods, get one on a Cold One with 1+ save and Great Weapon. You could get a ward for him but I prefer Dawnstone.

Final note on magic, get lots of channelling. You need extra dice to make the Slann effective. Also consider Tetto Ekko. His abilities really come into their own with two Mage Priests on the table.

 

[heuningby]

Final note on magic, get lots of channelling. You need extra dice to make the Slann effective. Also consider Tetto Ekko. His abilities really come into their own with two Mage Priests on the table.

OP said no special characters... Which is a pity because Lord Kroak in a Temple Guard unit would be dominating

 

[Scalenex]

I guess I should add that a small number of my choices are set in stone because I used them in previous campaign battles.

I have already paid for and Oldblood with the Blade of Realities. I can change his equipment or pass the Blade of Realities, or stick in my vault at my home base but I can't junk the Blade and get my 100 points back. Same goes for my Razor Standard, Standard of Discipline, Ruby Ring, Dispel Scroll, and Channeling Staff. I can transfer the magic items around or store them in my vault but I can't get the points back

I got six Chameleon Skinks, 29 Temple Guard, around 40 Skirmishers (groups of 13 or 14), 4 and 1 Kroxigor (yes 1 Kroxigor isn't a legal unit size, he's a surviving casualty that I can rebuild a new unit around), and one L2 Skink Priest with a Dispel Scroll and Ruby Ring of Ruin. The unit size minimums are set but I can upgrade them to the sky if I want.

One Slann is already set with Soul of Stone, Harmonic Convergence, and Becalming Cognition. I can add a fourth discipline or additional magical items if I pay for it. He is BSB but I can transfer BSB status to any eligible character I create. My "prepaid" Slann does not have his lore set in stone but if I buy WD or Focus of Mystery it will be set for all future battles (I'm not too concerned there because if I lose this battle, an inflexible Slann is the LEAST of my problems).

Likewise many of my opponents choices are already set. I only know a fraction of what that is though. Some Monstrous Cav, his two ueber Tzeentch characters on Daemon steeds, and some marauder cav. The other items are educated guesses.

Good advice all around. Definitely adding at least two Ancient Steggies, probably three. I don't see much call for Sallies or Razors in this situation despite how much I like those units against non-Chaos.

 

[angrypearl]

Let me know if you need extra models! I have about 8k LM myself, including a stegadon

 

[Thatguyoverthere11]

What are the rules for this campaign? It sounds like a lot of fun, buying magic items and things

 

[Scalenex]

Let me know if you need extra models! I have about 8k LM myself, including a stegadon

I'll think I'll take you up on that offer. I'm think I'm about 30 Temple Guard/Saurus short for my draft list and I STILL wish I had more Sauri.

What are the rules for this campaign? It sounds like a lot of fun, buying magic items and things

Angrypearl is the GM, so you can PM him if you want and I almost guarantee you he will be willing to share the rules. He generally likes feedback on his rules from a wide variety of sources.

The short version is we get points from holding map tiles and we each have a very large army split into many smaller armies.

Right now I have about 4000ish of troops defending my land and 2500ish playing guerilla fighter in the WoC land and about 1200 way out of the way in VC lands (they probably shouldn't be there but it's not practically to move that little flag out). I'll probably get between 1500 and 3000 points of reinforcements to get ready for our big battle. One nice thing about my expeditionary forces is that they have so many Core units in them, my big battle force can actually be fielded with less than 25% Core since only our TOTAL army has to have 25% Core.

A hypothetical draft is as follows

Slann, BSB, Standard of Discipline, Becalming Cognition, Harmonic Convergence, Soul of Stone Metal, Shadow, or Death
Slann, Soul of Stone, Focus of Mystery, Forbidden Rod, Reservoir of Edritch Energy,
Oldblood, light armor, shield, Blade of Realities

Skink Priest, L2 Heavens (or Beasts, like the Slann the Lore is not set), Ruby Ring of Ruin, Dispel Scroll

~40 Spear Saurui
~35 Sword and Board Sauri
3x13 Skink Skirmishers

2 x 7 Kroxigor
~10 Chamleon Skinks
2 x ~33 Temple Guard, one with Razor Standard, one with Gleaming Pennant

2 Ancient Steggies with Sharpened Horns, Stampeded, EOTG
Troglodon with Divining Rod

That's roughly 5000 points. If I have to go less I'll cut the Saurus and TG blocs down. If I go more I plan to toss in some Scar Veteran Cowboys, maybe some Terradons or Rippers. Boost the TG to 40 if I can afford it.

Again I'm open to suggestions but a lot of my character builds are set. Only Slann number two is "new" the others are sunk costs. I pretty much have to two units of Kroxigor (though they needen't be 7) and one unit of Chameleon Skinks, and at least 29 Temple Guard. I have no idea if my current Skirmishers will survive their current rounds of battles.

 

[Zwuppie]

I've been building a 6k list to see what kind of options you would have! When i looked at it I thought this sounds awesome!

It sounds like:


Lords:

Saurus Oldblood
- LA, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Might, Other Trickster's Shard, Dawnstone

Slann [General]
- Becalming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Focus of Mystery, Channeling Staff, Obsidian Amulet

Slann [BSB]
- Soul of Stone, Resevoir of Eldritch Energy, Cube of Darkness, Obsidian Trinket, Skavenpelt Banner, Lore of Shadow

Heroes:

Skink Priest
- Lv 1 Heavens, EOTG

Core:

2x50 Saurus Warriors w/ Spears
- Full Command

5x10 Skirmishers w/ Javelin and Shield

Special:

Bastiladon w/ Solar Engine

2x7 Kroxigors

40 Templeguard [General's unit]
- Full Command

39 Templeguard [BSB's and Oldblood's unit]
- Full Command, Razor Standard

Rare:

2x Ancient Stegadon w/ Sharpened Horns

2x Troglodon w/ Divining Rod


The troglodons, slanns and priest gives you a total of 4 channeling attempts on 6+ and 3 on a 5+! So normally you would channel 2 dice! sometimes more sometimes less.. At least one I think!

Because he won't have much warmachines those troglodons could do their job very good! So why don't give it a try! And you have 3 stegadons walking around so many threads for less cannons! And when you swap a high magic spell for earthblood you can restore wounds! When you have earthblood, swap the spell to the combat unit slann to give them also a regeneration if necessary! Remember you have to choose Wardsave or Regeneration!

 

[Man0waR]

1 Slann Wandering Deliberations BSB w/ Skavenpelt.
---->Templeguard with Razor Standard.
----> Oldblood, light armour, cold one, blade of realities.

1 Slann Focus of Mistery. General.
----> Templeguard with War-banner.
----> Oldblood, light armour, enchanted shield, obsidian blade, talisman of salvation.

3 skink priest lvl 2 beast.
-----> Dispel Scroll, Cube, Sivejiir Hex scroll.
*You want to get #6 & #5 for this tough battle. Also at least 2x#0.


Optional: Scarnosaur. Armour of destiny, great weapon.

3x 1+ Scarvet on cold one w/ gw (They wont need more protection in magic items)
------> 6x Cold one riders w/musician & Champion. Run them 3x3. You only want to fight with your Scarvets. Send them to kill Skullcrushers.

Fill your core with a large Skrox unit to hold the weak flank. More skinks than Kroxigors. Complete the core points with MSU Skirmishers or Cohorts (if cohorts always bring champion, so they'll last one round more against a lone chaos hero)

(Dont bring saurus. You already have 2 Temple Guards blocks)

1 bastiladon
2x2 swarms (placed 1x2) to follow your blocks.
2x Stegadon Sharpened horns (remember those beast priest? they can wildform in the turn they charge. Also with hand of glory you can get a nice bolthrower)
10x Chameleons. They can punish light cav.

EOTG Ancient Stegadon Sharpened horns.
6 Razordons. (You'll se how effective are those little beast hunting chariots or storming a flank)
Troglodon.

I would deploy a "Weak" flank with the large Skrox unit in wide formation near to the General bubble, supported by some skirmisher to delay them. Razordons & Regular Stegadon ready to support the flank or the mid. (one skink should be placed here to Vassal, the one with the useless spells)

In the middle I would put both Temple Guard on the external flank place 1x2 swarm and the internal flank the bastiladon giving both the initiative buff.
Here should be placed the Priest with Savage beast. (As your oldblood deny AS but has not enough strenght.

On the "Strong" flank I would run the CoR bus along the Troglodon & EOTG. If you have a Carnosaur, Run them near the Trog too.


Your goals should be:
1st Skullcrushers. They are tough but you will win the fight with your CoR. As they could only attack scarvets in front, they would be hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's and you will save on 3's and 6's (if EOTG near).
In return youll be striking on 4's /2's and he would save on 5's.

2nd Chariots. Again they are tough but not as hard as Skullcrushers. If no light cavalry, this is your next target on shooting. Lure them to charge you, and flee. Countercharge with your Stegadon next turn supported by Wyssans.

3rd Large Infantry blocks. They lack the maneuverablity of the rest of the army. Since he is going to push forward they usually get unsupported. So with a combined charge you can deal with them in one or two rounds due to not awesome Leadership.

Things that wont worth the effort.

- Trying to kill Daemon Prince. If he plays well you'll only got 3 chances to do it. So its more a random event plus poor decisions on your opponent.
in first magic phase) Throw a magic missile to remove charmed shield. Throw boosted amber spear. Throw boosted Shem's burning gaze (1d6 S6 hits. Don't know if 2d6 for being a daemon)
in shooting) remove charmed shield with any kind of shooting. Shoot him with your bolthrowers and pray for awesome luck. Make the Daemon prince a cactus. And hope for some wounds.
in combat) If he decides to charge your blocks both your oldbloods can deal with him, but they will need heavy magic support. So challenge him with a champion, so you can have a magic phase to shift the odds.

- Trying to kill Tzeencht immortal heroes. You have three ways to deal with them.
1st Arcane Unforge.
2nd if its a sorcerer. Syvejiir Hex scroll.
3rd if he charge your blocks. Both Oldbloods should be able to kill him. (the BoR one with ease)


That's my expierence against Chaos. You cannot rely on offensive magic. Just bring counter-units to their strenght.

 

[Scalenex]

We are running this game a bit earlier than the campaign than I expected, that means that it will be a MERE 4584 points. It's still the biggest game I'll ever have played.

My current list is as followed, yellow entries are frozen, I can't NOT take them. Non-yellow items are not set in stone. Also I need to take a slightly higher number of Core than I thought. I'm on the razor edge with my Core tax, if I drop ANY Core unless I add more Core points elsewhere.


Slann, Becalming Cognition, Harmonic Converge, Soul of Stone, BSB: Razor Standard, Channeling Staff, Lore of Metal is probably what I'll take.
Oldblood, light armor, shield, Blade of Realities
Slann, Focus of Mystery, Soul of Stone, Forbidden Rod
Old Blood, Glittering Scales, Fencer's Blades, Other Trickster's Shard

Skink Chief, Blowpipe, light armor, shield
Skink Priest, L2, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Dispel Scroll, Lore of Heavens
Skink Priest L1, Scroll of Shielding, Lore of Heavens

11 Cohort Skinks with Brave
13 Skink Skirmishers with Brave
13 Skink Skirmishers with Brave
14 Skink Skirmishers with Brave
28 Saurus Warriors, Sword and Board, Standard, Musician
28 Saurus Warriors, Sword and Board, Standard, Musician

30 Temple Guard with FC and Gleaming Pennant
29 Temple Guard, with FC and Standard of Discipline
4 Kroxigor with Ancient
1 Kroxigor Ancientwith three new buddies
6 Chameleon Skinks

1 Ancient Stegadon with EOTG
Troglodon with Divining Rod. (I just assembled this guy a few days ago and I think a "fresh" model might be lucky. I also have two Slann and lots of Predatory Fighters, but I'd be willing to swap this for something else for a good alternative use of the points)

Assuming I win, the odds of a bigger game next campaign month are quite good. If I lose, I won't be eliminated but I won't have any bargaining power to establish battle terms for grand armies unless my opponent decides to limit his army to be sporting (and to direct the rest of his vast hordes against my allies.) The campaign mechanics make it VERY hard to stop early momentum. Basically it's the strongest two players versus the weakest four and they have the edge on in points and productive capacity. If I win my big battle, they will STILL have the edge on us in points, but we'll be even in productive capacity. My allies have made some modest gains at the bad guys expense when the WoC focused full against me, but if I lose the Alliance of Order is pretty much doomed.