8th Ed. Optimising the New Magic System

[Screamer]

This is the list I intend to run.
Lords: 790 points
- Saurus Oldblood (cold one, great weapon, light armour, wizarding hat)
- Saurus Oldblood (Carnosaur (full upgrades) light armour, shield, piranha blade, dawnstone, other tricksters shard)
Heroes: 595 points
- Gor’rok
- Scar Vet (BSB (War banner), Carnosaur (full upgrades), great weapon and light armour
Core: 764 points
- 40 saurus, full command and spears in a horde at first, later reformed to 5 wide to give me steadfast and less frontage
- 24 saurus, full command and HW+Shield
Special: 851 points
- 10 Cold One Cavalry, full command and spears
- 29 Temple guards, full command, razor banner

I'll actually be mostly interested in trying out a battle with only a level 2 wizard. Using the normal magic rules, he'd be shut down entirely by any decent wizard, but using the end times rules... We'll see how it goes, though honestly, an oldblood is still an oldblood, magic items or not. 1+ AS and 5 attacks at s7 is nothing to sneeze at, though I do fear my CoC unit will be nuked out of existance on the first turn. I hope i get a chance to actually see my Oldblood wizard cast some spells

Carnosaur old blood should have either of the magic shields, either cheaper than LA+shield or better with a chance to negate a canonball.
And I would personally prefer armour of destiny on the other Carnosaur, to have 2+/4++ instead of only 3+. Sure, warbanner can be good, but not as useful as the save.

 

[KingCheops]

Magic Resistance on as many blocks as you can get. Combined with the Engine of the Gods it is really good and you can almost ignore magic missiles and concentrate on dispelling buffs/debuffs. Also stubborn is important now since if you are playing Elves you'll be facing a KFA style deathstar with unbuffed units.

Focus of Mystery is amazeballs. You get rerolls on High Magic spells and now that you can trigger the lore ability 2+ times per phase you get access to more spells than you'll ever need. Low WS and I is the big bugaboo of Saurus and this deals with that. Drain Magic is hands down the best spell in the game as the meta is going to lean towards CoreStars buffed to have 10's in as many stats as possible.

Naked Skink Chiefs got really good and OB/SV got downgraded in usefulness. If you have Drain Magic you don't need to worry about enemy buffs/debuffs and can freely buff your own characters. I'd rather have 2-3 Chiefs instead so that I have a ton more attacks. You only need 2 Savage Beasts to go off and suddenly you are S10, A9.

I'm leaning more towards Skink Cohorts instead of Saurus in this. 100 in a unit and buff it up. Deploy 25 wide by 4 deep and get a couple of rounds of 50 shots on your opponent (Wyssans for extra luls). Reform into 5 by 20 and be steadfast for a long time. Saurus not having ranged attack is suddenly not as useful but the crazy amount of buffs does make them way more viable than currently. Skinks also have the benefit of higher I so they are before most armies and with HoG and maybe a Bastiladon you can take away elfish re-rolls.

 

[lordkingcrow]

It is very likely that the system that is being used as part of the End Times is going to be the one used in 9th or one that is very similar. Also the new rules basically say that if one player wants to use them, then you have to use them.
Ray

Just wanted to clarify that End Times requires mutual agreement to use. It is essentially a different way to play from what the Core Rulebook has. Plus, it's just good manners. If they wanted you to use 4d6 dice in the Winds of Magic with the addition of some of these other rules, it would have been updated in the FAQ just like they did with Lord percentages.

Sorry if I sound like a stickler, but I personally don't like the End Times campaign or the rules along with it. If somebody showed up with said rules/models without seeing if it was alright first, I'd be a little miffed.

 

[SilverFaith]

Also the new rules basically say that if one player wants to use them, then you have to use them.
Ray

Just wanted to clarify that End Times requires mutual agreement to use. It is essentially a different way to play from what the Core Rulebook has. Plus, it's just good manners.

Agreed. Sure, you are free to point to the rules and say "I can use it if I want to, only one of the players needs to wish using them!", just like your opponent is free to say "Then you need to find someone else to play with!"

Even if the rules technically try to force the other player to use the rules, you have no obligations to do so. The 50% allowance is a core rule now, so anyone saying they wont play with anyone using them is free to do so... Like, say, someone saying they would never play against dwarves, or only wants to play if you disregard all instances of ASF because they don't like the rule.

You are free to do whatever you want. Just don't expect your potential opponent to agree with you.

 

[SilverFaith]

This is the list I intend to run.
- Saurus Oldblood (Carnosaur (full upgrades) light armour, shield, piranha blade, dawnstone, other tricksters shard)
- Scar Vet (BSB (War banner), Carnosaur (full upgrades), great weapon and light armour

Carnosaur old blood should have either of the magic shields, either cheaper than LA+shield or better with a chance to negate a canonball.
And I would personally prefer armour of destiny on the other Carnosaur, to have 2+/4++ instead of only 3+. Sure, warbanner can be good, but not as useful as the save.

Can't take BSB and magic items, otherwise I would have given him some more defense. Didn't matter though! currently writing up the report, posting it soon. It went surprisingly well, though the new magic system was a massive factor. Having all spells and having random power AND dispel dice was a deciding factor in the outcome, because it doesn't matter how good a caster you might be, if you only have 2 dice against 4, you will still fail to accomplish anything in most cases, whether you are casting or dispelling. This also means the Slann is actually looking fairly unappealing after my game with the Oldblood wizard. Hell, if I got a chosen lore, or at least the ability to not get Heavens and beast, I'd probably be more likely to take an oldblood over a slann. A slann is just too expensive for a pure wizard, in a system where magic is highly prone to failing because of bad luck, even moreso than before. An Oldblood is still a powerful melee character, so even if magic whiffs, you still have a beatstick character. It's basically the chaos sorcerer type of guy, who is useful whether or not he is casting spells.

It's just a shame that we don't get to choose a lore. But that is the issue with the wizard hat... 100 points restricts it to lord choices, and using the current core rules, you roll for a random lore, making it highly unpredictable, and THEN you roll for 2 spells, making it even worse. You can't rely on getting anything out of this item. With the End times rules, you at least get access to all the spells, which ensures at least some good spells, no matter what lore you get.

 

[KingCheops]

Are we thinking channel staff and convergence is going to be less potent if this rolls into 9th?

Not sure about other people's tables but we always generate based on the rules in the book. In our game we had 2 pieces that were Magical Lodestones. Having 3 channeling dice at +2 would be pretty good (I didn't take it I went FoM, Becalming, and the MR d3 one) and more so with another +1. That could be 3 dice at 3+. That's pretty huge.

Edit to add: Don't forget that Slanns can bring their own lodestones with them in the form of Arcane Fulcrums.

 

[hdctambien]

Can't take BSB and magic items, otherwise I would have given him some more defense.

You *can* take a BSB and Magical Items as long as the BSB is not a magical BSB.

So, Scar Vet + BSB + Armor of Destiny is okay

But, Scar Vet + BSB + War Banner + Armor of Destiny is not allowed.

Screamer is suggesting to drop the War Banner for the Armor of Destiny, but keep the model as the BSB.

 

[NexS1]

Are we thinking channel staff and convergence is going to be less potent if this rolls into 9th?

Not sure about other people's tables but we always generate based on the rules in the book. In our game we had 2 pieces that were Magical Lodestones. Having 3 channeling dice at +2 would be pretty good (I didn't take it I went FoM, Becalming, and the MR d3 one) and more so with another +1. That could be 3 dice at 3+. That's pretty huge.

Edit to add: Don't forget that Slanns can bring their own lodestones with them in the form of Arcane Fulcrums.

I don't know what you're referring to with the lodestones. Is this Storm of Magic stuff? (I don't play SoM because it takes too long and there are too many spells etc.)

 

[SilverFaith]

Can't take BSB and magic items, otherwise I would have given him some more defense.

You *can* take a BSB and Magical Items as long as the BSB is not a magical BSB.

So, Scar Vet + BSB + Armor of Destiny is okay

But, Scar Vet + BSB + War Banner + Armor of Destiny is not allowed.

Screamer is suggesting to drop the War Banner for the Armor of Destiny, but keep the model as the BSB.

...

...

Damnit! How did i miss that? I read the paragraph like 20 times, and I keep concluding BSBs can't have magic items.

Oh well, that's good to know for when I don't use my Slann as a BSB.

 

[KingCheops]

Are we thinking channel staff and convergence is going to be less potent if this rolls into 9th?

Not sure about other people's tables but we always generate based on the rules in the book. In our game we had 2 pieces that were Magical Lodestones. Having 3 channeling dice at +2 would be pretty good (I didn't take it I went FoM, Becalming, and the MR d3 one) and more so with another +1. That could be 3 dice at 3+. That's pretty huge.

Edit to add: Don't forget that Slanns can bring their own lodestones with them in the form of Arcane Fulcrums.

I don't know what you're referring to with the lodestones. Is this Storm of Magic stuff? (I don't play SoM because it takes too long and there are too many spells etc.)

No they are in Khaine. It's any Arcane Architecture or something like that. So we had an Arcane Ruins and a Wyrding Well. And now that I think about it I forgot to use the Arcane Ruins (dammit!). Both have their normal effects plus are now Magical Lodestones. Any Wizard within 3" adds +2 to their Channel attempts.

You also have the Summon Arcane Fulcrum, which, amongst many other awesome benefits, is also a Magical Lodestone.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Keep in mind that the fulcrum is a building.
Cannons and templates that hit buildings do a D6 hits.
A Character in the open hit by a cannon takes 1 hit doing D6 wounds.
A wizard on a fulcrum takes D6 hits doing 1 wound each.
The Fulcrum helps keep you alive (3+ ward, immune to the multiple wounds rule), but ~2 rounds of shooting will kill a wizard in a fulcrum.

As for casting and dispelling, only wizards are restricted to using D6 dice. If you are using a bound spell, you can roll as many as you want. Likewise, if you're dispelling, you can choose to go without the wizards bonus and roll as many dice as you want.
This really helps to balance the phase. It's very hard to get off a single decisive spell, especially if you're willing to take the hits from the magic missiles/direct damage and save the dice for the big one.

As for wandering deliberations, my experience has been that Loremaster highmagic is vastly better. Re-rolling to cast lets you really pump out of a lot of little spells and put the pressure on your opponents dispel pool. It's pretty easy to pick up a lore or two on turn 1, getting whatever situational spell you needed.

With all that said, the End time spell for Heavens is stupidly broken. Choose 4 targets, and push them 2D6", you can choose a target more than once. 15+ to cast, opponent cannot dispel. In two games, it's killed all the fun. You can basically pick a few of the opponents units and take them out of the game. He has no defense against this. Cast through a skink priest (it's a magic missile) I had my Toad push the vampire general ~40" sideways away from the vampire army. No marching for you. Turn 1, fun successfully killed.


I'd like to see the endtimes magic rules get adopted, but I'd like either the end time spells not take part, or be allowed to dispel them as normal.

 

[Screamer]

If fulcrums is a building, don't you get -2 to hit from ranged attacks?

 

[KingCheops]

If fulcrums is a building, don't you get -2 to hit from ranged attacks?

Lizardmatt's point was that you 1d6 hits from template weapons. The -2 doesn't help you against that. Which is honestly something I hadn't thought of (since I pretty much exclusively play against HE).

I hadn't thought of the heavens trick before. More fuel for the fire for using Tetto'eko.

 

[SilverFaith]

I hadn't thought of the heavens trick before. More fuel for the fire for using Tetto'eko.

If by this, you mean the End Times spell, then it wont work. tetto doesn't get the end times spell. Requires level 3, and tetto is still just a level 2 (for some reason)

 

[KingCheops]

I hadn't thought of the heavens trick before. More fuel for the fire for using Tetto'eko.

If by this, you mean the End Times spell, then it wont work. tetto doesn't get the end times spell. Requires level 3, and tetto is still just a level 2 (for some reason)

D'oh. You're right. Not such a Loremaster is he?

 

[SilverFaith]

I hadn't thought of the heavens trick before. More fuel for the fire for using Tetto'eko.

If by this, you mean the End Times spell, then it wont work. tetto doesn't get the end times spell. Requires level 3, and tetto is still just a level 2 (for some reason)

D'oh. You're right. Not such a Loremaster is he?

Always bugged me that he is only a level 2, but i suppose that keeps him in line with other heroes. At least it keeps him at a good point level. Though honestly, one would think Loremaster would also grant access to the End Times spells.

I'd bet on Tettot getting a change next update. Or removed, who knows. Depends on what they do with this entire "end times" thing.

 

[Hooligan]

Sort of a side tangent, but I was wondering what the community thought about Wandering Deliberations vs Focus in the end times. My understanding of how the rules apply to us is this:

Wandering Deliberations provides access to all 8 BRB lores, and thus every spell including the End Times.

Focus of Mystery allows us true loremaster. Since the new rules blatantly state that the old system of spell generation does not apply anymore, I would interpret our attribute where we get access to the entire lore when we pick a spell from there. We still lose the high spell we swapped for in the same way you can forget in a miscast.

Is that how yall would/have been interpreting the new generation? In that case which discipline would be best for an all-comer situation? It seems to me that Wandering gives you the diversity of the toolbox right off the back. For 5 points more, however, you can swap for almost the same diversity, but it will come later in the game. In that case if you are focusing on BRB spells, is the Loremaster of High even that useful?

 

[Ixt]

I don't grasp the reasoning behind WD granting all the spells of every lore... the entry specifically says that the Slann doesn't generate spells normally, but only accesses the signature spells, doesn't it?

So, you're not generating spells from the lores (and not generating any spells at all, really). Rather, you're only being assigned each lore's signature spells, right?

I'll reread the wording, but I remember it being pretty concise.

FoM, on the other hand... yeah, seems like you swap one HM spell for an entire lore 'til further notice.

Edit: Yep, just reread the Discipline entry. The wording seems to limit the Slann to the 8 Signature Spells.

Edit edit: Just saw the actual wording for the relevant entry in ET Khaine, which complicates things. Is this a case of AB > BRB?

BRB says 'knowing one spell = knowing all spells,' but AB says 'rather than doing the normal thing (the latter), you get these 8 signature spells.' *shrug* 'The normal thing,' in this case, being:

* Pick one lore.
* Get all of the spells from that one lore.

This says, 'Don't do any of that, don't follow those rules for generation at all. You're not doing anything that way, because these are your 8 spells.' I just don't see how you can have both.

I'm more of an FoM guy, anyway. Happy Holidays, all!

Edit edit edit: Finally got my hands on the page in ET Khaine. Despite all, it looks like it works, yeah. Pretty weird.

 

[Rettile]

well, since loremaster of hoeth got all the full brb lores with ETK i think wandering slanns are going to follow the same rules. And i think WD will be way more powerful than FoM now, even if i love high magic: it provides you tons of spells, great spells, cheap spells.... and many RiP spells: you can cast them to make your opponent waste PD in his next magic phase, for example. Thus you have so many possible good combos... Yeah, HM is a great lore, but is it as good as 8 lores with their ET spell? I don't think so, even if i recognize that drain magic and arcane unforging would be really useful in the new ET meta

 

[Screamer]

Don't forget the re roll with FoM.