Discussion On Zoats, Troglodytes and Snakemen

[Mr.Crocodile]

Hey, so this all originated in a lengthy discussion about the Troglodytes from older versions of the Warhammer Lore, so I'll be taking that conversation and distilling it into the following post.


So, here's my idea:
Troglodytes, Zoats, and Nagas (Snakemen) are all directly related to the lizardmen, either as failed first attempts at creating what we know as the lizardmen, as castes which could have been part of the lizardmen, or abandoned projects.

Here's my working logic on why would there be 4 separate reptilian intelligent (compared to common animals) races all in the Warhammer world?

We know, objectively, that the lizardmen are not a natural species, as if the way they reproduce or their caste system didn't make it evident. We also know that, as powerful as the Old Ones were, they weren't perfect, because if they had been... They would not have lost the original war. So it stands to reason that they would have gone through a prototyping phase during the creation of their favoured servants.

On top of that, the really old lore for all three species (Zoats, troglodytes and Snakemen) makes it clear in one way or another that all three are:
Extremely ancient.
And/Or
No one knows what their origins are.

But said really old lore also makes connections to the lizardmen. For example:
The Snakemen live in Khuresh, and guess what's mentioned in their lore? That there's a lost city of the Old Ones in the middle of Khuresh.
The Zoats, both Total War Warhammer 2 and 8th edition are theorized in-story that there could be some connection between them and the Slann.
And the troglodytes? They literally were just brothers to the lizardmen in the old lore back when they were still a thing.

So here are my ideas:

The Naga: A lizardmen variant(like Saurus, Slann, Kroxigor or the Skink varieties) that never went "into production". So they were left in the region were their creators first designed them. The same way that dog breeders who have no use for a puppy might give it up in adoption or sell it for cheap or even abandon it. They had no use for the Old Ones, but they also had no reason to destroy them

Zoats: probably an attempt to balance the magical power of a Slann-like creature with the physical fitness of something like a Kroxigor or a dragon-ogre. When it became clear that that balance was not as useful or easy to archive as simple specialization, they were also abandoned as a project.

Troglodytes: Probably a "beta" version of Kroxigors and/or Saurus. Since they seem to be an in-between of shorts of their characteristics.

 

[Mr.Crocodile]

Some further thoughts, particularly on Troglodytes, shared by discord user Lazycaptain, myself and some others:

-They would live in the massive cave systems of the Old World, being the kind of mysterious creatures Dwarfs tell stories about and the Skaven are scared to come across, like a boogie man. They would be something the skaven tell their young of to keep them in line.

-After such a long time, they probably would have developed their own culture separate from that if the Lizardmen. But they probably still hate chaos, ingrained into their original design, like how modern humans are instinctively capable of finding snakes.

-Depending on which take you prefer, and on how through record keeping might be, the existence of these long lost cousins could be either unknown, or common knowledge or something in between. Perhaps it is something only the eldest Slann remember, or common knowledge in lizardmen society.

-There'd be sparse populations of them in any regions with expansive cave systems, such as the World's Edge mountains, or Mountains of mourn. But these would be very small communities. Similarly to how irl subterranean amphibians operate.

-Unlike lizardmen, they are a more biologically normal race, capable of sexual reproduction (perhaps through Sequential Hermaphroditism) and whose individuals grow at different rates or to different sizes depending on space and food availability.

-Intelect wise, they would be more intelligent than something like Kroxigors, with a better understanding of how the world actually works, though not as smart as a saurus. And they would speak a language extremely distantly related to High or Battle Saurian, in account of the many thousands of years of separation.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Most impressive research!

The Naga: A lizardmen variant(like Saurus, Slann, Kroxigor or the Skink varieties) that never went "into production". So they were left in the region were their creators first designed them. The same way that dog breeders who have no use for a puppy might give it up in adoption or sell it for cheap or even abandon it. They had no use for the Old Ones, but they also had no reason to destroy them

I've been looking a lot into Khuresh of late. There are various theories that abound as to the heritage of the Naga, including ones like yours about them being a failed project of the Old Ones, and others that suggest they are Chaos Lizardmen. Their culture is definitely different from the Lizardmen, as befitting their location in the Warhammer World in comparison to ours, they have a southeast Asian culture and of course draw heavily from the mythology of those regions. Being corrupted by Chaos would certainly explain these cultural differences, in the same way as Chaos Dwarfs changing from grumpy, grudge-bearing Saxons/Vikings as normal Dwarfs are into ruthless, industrial Babylonians/Persians. Simply being abandoned by the Old Ones not so much, unless the Naga were meant to be the real first creations of the Old Ones who they got bored of and transferred to Lustria to create the Lizardmen, in the same way the Chaos Gods created and then got bored of the Fimir. Indeed it could be a bit of both, because such an insult would certainly make the Naga consider converting to Chaos to punish the Old Ones for their callousness. It would give them a nice bit of rivalry with the Lizardmen too, just as with High Elves vs Dark Elves and Dwarfs vs Chaos Dwarfs.

Regardless, they are certainly an interesting and untouched concept, and I plan to develop an army list for them as one of my many fan-made army projects.

Zoats: probably an attempt to balance the magical power of a Slann-like creature with the physical fitness of something like a Kroxigor or a dragon-ogre. When it became clear that that balance was not as useful or easy to archive as simple specialization, they were also abandoned as a project.

Zoats are unusual creatures. They don't seem to wield any Aztec weapons even in the most recent depiction of them in Storm of Magic, so I would have thought that they were not related to the Lizardmen, perhaps not even created by the Old Ones, but I could be wrong given their reptilian nature. Your idea of them meant to be an improvement on Slann given the physical weakness of the latter would certainly make sense from the Old Ones' perspective. However, they seem more to live in the Old World rather than Lustria, which would suggest they are not related to the Lizardmen. Not to mention that they seem to be pretty much the epitome of True Neutral, not doing anything to help or hinder anyone unless they are threatened - if they were created by the Old Ones to work with the Lizardmen, surely they would take a much more active role to ensure the success of the Great Plan?

Troglodytes: Probably a "beta" version of Kroxigors and/or Saurus. Since they seem to be an in-between of shorts of their characteristics.

Troglodytes were last seen in the 3rd Edition Fantasy rulebook, and are even then the 'bigger cousins' of the Lizardmen, who didn't worship the Old Ones at that time (indeed they were one of their enemies, having a bone to pick with the Slann in those days for driving them underground). It's pretty clear that Troglodytes were the original concept that later evolved to become Kroxigors because even in the 3rd Edition rulebook they had rules along the lines of Monstrous Infantry. However, unlike the other two species mentioned above, because Kroxigors are an existing and working part of current Warhammer canon, there is no reason for Trogolodytes to make an appearance, unless they were reinvented somehow as an alternative faction.

 

[Mr.Crocodile]

Most impressive research!

So here are my ideas:


I've been looking a lot into Khuresh of late. There are various theories that abound as to the heritage of the Naga, including ones like yours about them being a failed project of the Old Ones, and others that suggest they are Chaos Lizardmen. Their culture is definitely different from the Lizardmen, as befitting their location in the Warhammer World in comparison to ours, they have a southeast Asian culture and of course draw heavily from the mythology of those regions. Being corrupted by Chaos would certainly explain these cultural differences, in the same way as Chaos Dwarfs changing from grumpy, grudge-bearing Saxons/Vikings as normal Dwarfs are into ruthless, industrial Babylonians/Persians. Simply being abandoned by the Old Ones not so much, unless the Naga were meant to be the real first creations of the Old Ones who they got bored of and transferred to Lustria to create the Lizardmen, in the same way the Chaos Gods created and then got bored of the Fimir. Indeed it could be a bit of both, because such an insult would certainly make the Naga consider converting to Chaos to punish the Old Ones for their callousness. It would give them a nice bit of rivalry with the Lizardmen too, just as with High Elves vs Dark Elves and Dwarfs vs Chaos Dwarfs.

Regardless, they are certainly an interesting and untouched concept, and I plan to develop an army list for them as one of my many fan-made army projects.



Zoats are unusual creatures. They don't seem to wield any Aztec weapons even in the most recent depiction of them in Storm of Magic, so I would have thought that they were not related to the Lizardmen, perhaps not even created by the Old Ones, but I could be wrong given their reptilian nature. Your idea of them meant to be an improvement on Slann given the physical weakness of the latter would certainly make sense from the Old Ones' perspective. However, they seem more to live in the Old World rather than Lustria, which would suggest they are not related to the Lizardmen. Not to mention that they seem to be pretty much the epitome of True Neutral, not doing anything to help or hinder anyone unless they are threatened - if they were created by the Old Ones to work with the Lizardmen, surely they would take a much more active role to ensure the success of the Great Plan?



Troglodytes were last seen in the 3rd Edition Fantasy rulebook, and are even then the 'bigger cousins' of the Lizardmen, who didn't worship the Old Ones at that time (indeed they were one of their enemies, having a bone to pick with the Slann in those days for driving them underground). It's pretty clear that Troglodytes were the original concept that later evolved to become Kroxigors because even in the 3rd Edition rulebook they had rules along the lines of Monstrous Infantry. However, unlike the other two species mentioned above, because Kroxigors are an existing and working part of current Warhammer canon, there is no reason for Trogolodytes to make an appearance, unless they were reinvented somehow as an alternative faction.

Well while I call them theories, it's also fair to say that these ideas are just a collection of thoughts for fanlore and alterations I plan to make in my writing projects. Like how I have thought of Southlander or Khuresh human factions for when I eventually I explore those localities knowing that canonically these mostly don't exist.

Also, yours is a very interesting idea on the Naga too! Kudos!

 

[Scalenex]

Similar ground has been covered years ago on my old thread on Fimir.

In my opinion, At least for the purpose of Lustria-Online, the key to maximizing the storytelling utility of Zoats and Snakemen is to highlight the dramatic foil elements of these reptile creatures.

The Warriors of Chaos are scary to the humans of the Empire because in a way they are pretty similar. I see something similar here for skinks and the rare introspective Saurus or Kroxigor. To quote a piece of the Fimir thread.

Fimir are cold blooded semi-aquatic reptiles. They have a caste system with subtypes similar to Skinks/Saurus/Kroxigor. They are ruled by magic wielding priests that are practically worshipped. Their whole lives revolve around their religious duties. Their society and traditions are impossibly ancient when compared to the other races of the Warhammer world.

What is scary is to look into the face of Chaos of see yourself reflected.

 

[Bowser]

I know for Zoats, first edition RPG said that the lizardmen had an innate fear of Zoats. I mean, bigger than a Kroxigor and able to innately cast magic is pretty intimidating. Maybe some sort of uncanny valley thing for the lizardmen.

 

[Mr.Crocodile]

Similar ground has been covered years ago on my old thread on Fimir.

In my opinion, At least for the purpose of Lustria-Online, the key to maximizing the storytelling utility of Zoats and Snakemen is to highlight the dramatic foil elements of these reptile creatures.

The Warriors of Chaos are scary to the humans of the Empire because in a way they are pretty similar. I see something similar here for skinks and the rare introspective Saurus or Kroxigor. To quote a piece of the Fimir thread.

Been thinking about this contrast theming. And honestly the Fimir do such a good job at it that I don't think there's a need to do the same thing with the Naga.

Instead, if we keep the analogy of the Fimir being to the lizardmen what the Chaos Warriors are to humans... The Naga could be the vampire Counts to the Lizardmen.

"Ultimately base, selfish creatures driven by the same motivations as the mortals they deem themselves superior to." (From the Warhammer wiki on the Vampire Counts.

If the Fimir are a dark reflection, the Snakemen can be a living cautionary tale. An example of what they could become if they stray from what makes them who they are.
Plus, like vampires, they could make for complex characters who aren't all the same. Instead of the "all evil only evil all the time" of the Chaos factions. With different Snakemen factions having different goals being allies or enemies to the lizardmen depending on the wider context and their goals.

(Plus the Naga already have blood drinking in their lore and it's funny)