8th Ed. No-Slann armies

[GhostWarrior]

In the Beasts v. Heavens debate in the no-Slann list, the answer is of course going to be - 'it depends on what you take in your list'.

From my experience, Heavens is the better choice if:

1. You are taking 1 or more Carnosaurs
2. You are happy with the killing power of the troops - this would be the case if you rely heavily on GW Cowboys to do your killing, while otherwise running a skink cloud with plenty of terradons, salamanders and the like.
3. You don't have an Engine of the Gods.
4. Your Cowboys don't have a CO unit to hide in from cannons.

Beasts started working better for me when:

1. The Carnosaur disappeared from the list.
2. The OB took the Piranha Blade (really good at St5, amazing at St6)
3. I wanted Spear Saurus to play a role in my battle plan.
4. I took an Engine with Sharpened Horns (Str 7 Sharpened Horn Impact hits are sweet!).
5. A unit of 6 CO's entered the list.

Currently, I am loving taking Beasts with 2 Level 1's. It's a really fun lore, and with 2-3 Cowboys and an Engine, you can generally make important casts of Wildform need only an 8 to succeed. Nothing wrong with Heavens, but I'm planning for the current tournament meta, which tends to have a lot of Elves (High and Dark), Warriors, and Daemons right now. -1 to hit doesn't really have an effect in CC when ASF is involved (it does, but it can be small), and when compared to +1 Str, +1T I really like the boosted killing power of our Saurus vs better armor and toughness when Wildform comes into play.

However, I would argue that any Lizard list which goes monster heavy really needs to invest in Heavens, just to slow the damage output of opposing cannons. This can be useful for keeping Cowboys safer too.

 

[GCPD]

Insightful analysis, thanks!

I was initially going Heavens without a doubt, as Iceshard is just too useful a spell. But now I'm not so sure, especially as I don't need the damage spells so much with a Blastydon about, and whilst Wildform is quite hard for a Priest to pull off the threat of double Wildform seems strong.

 

[VampTeddy]

I'm very much invested in Heavens as a general rule of thumbs.

It allows me to deal with warmachines, and they can after all also be lethal to our core units!

It is easier to cast than wyssans by a mile, heck i'd do it with an engine as well 5+ to cast with a lvl 1, 4+1 with a lvl 2.

I really am not impressed by the argument "only takes 8 to cast wyssans", you could save the acnient steg and the engine and pay 35 pts for a lvl 2 for the same result, 70 if you want to priests, with an added chance of savage beast, since you seem invested in your piranha blade dude, and a chance of CUrse, which is absolutely awesome!

While wyssans do have a bonus in massed combats (1v2) i still like the -1 to hit, and the -1 to ld, that everyone doesn't mention, even though it is not at all inconsequential!

If i roll 2 dice for me, and one for my opponent, rolling an 8 is off the table, rolling a 4 is definitely not, having 3 dice, i get the option of going for a 3 dice wyssan in one case, or a 2 dice Ice shard in the other, and a one dice wyssan with a 50% chance of success! If using lvl 2's i even get the option of Harmonic convergence at 3+ if i rolled it!


About Lvl 1's or 2's

I'd only ever want to invest in lvl 1 beast priests if i wasn't very invested in getting a working magic phase, 2 x 9+ to cast (8 with engine) is not at all very impressive, it goes to be a complete investment in dispel scrolls for 90 or 95 pts. While the Wyssans is important when it goes through i just don't feel the hardships of casting it is worth it compared to a heavens priest.

A lvl 1 Heavens will cast Iceshard on a 6+ which is quite a difference, in fact i'd argue that it's a whole dice of difference right there!

Thus if i used beasts, i'd bring a basti for those 2 dice phases, but i might not always have an eligible target for it, as with the hex and augments.

Lvl 2's is a different matter altogether, here i am even more invested in heavens, i feel there's much more waste in Beasts than in heavens! Heavens only has useful spells, even the pushing spells has use to fuck with charging! Beasts however contain both the flock of doom and pann's impenetrable pelt. +3 toughness for one character, and str 2 hits aren't impressive at all, unless we're talking clusterfuck of heroes on the pann's, and even then i'd rather cast savage beasts if i have it. The chances of rolling useful with heavens is simply higher.

This is not saying i think beasts is a bad lore, it really looks cool, and i feel you'd be able to do fun stuff with it, and i am definitely going to try it out as well as i try to find my all-comers list, but currently i am leaning way more towards heavens!

 

[hdctambien]

i still like the -1 to hit, and the -1 to ld, that everyone doesn't mention, even though it is not at all inconsequential!

And don't forget that Iceshard causes d6 S4 hits if it is cast on a Flying unit!

 

[Scalenex]

I agree with most of Ghost Warrior's thoughtful analysis. There are two small things I don't agree with.

2) I think the killing power of Heavens should not be discounted. Not a lot of lores have access to S6 hits.
3) I see no reason why the Engine of the Gods doesn't help two L2 Beasts Skinks as much as two L2 Heaven Skinks. If anything and EOTG boosts a Heavens backed army MORE. Without Wyssans boosting Toughness, the 6+ Ward save will partially make up for that.

 

[GreatEscape_13]

I see the side of the argument that reads the BSB rule to say that the model that carries the BSB becomes ineligible to be the General, but I don't see how you can read the General rule to say that only the "eligible model with the highest Ld" is the General. The word "eligible" (or any synonym) just isn't in the rule.

I suppose that I'm more convinced by the BSB becoming a non-option for who is general when it is assigned. Thus, that's a character that doesn't enter the pool of ones that gets considered.

As for the specifics of Orcs and Goblins and fluffs, I would think that Skarsnik or Grom the Paunch would have enough clout to have a Black Orc Hero carry their banner, even tho they're just meager goblins. And thus people's homebrew goblin warlords or shamans might be the same way.

I guess this is the first time I've ever seen this issue come up--it's always been treated in the things I've seen and games in my localities (a non-representative sample of course) as BSB = can't be general, choose general from the rest of the team using the highest leadership rule. I'll have to think on it further, but it's a moment where my sense is that RAI might be the way to proceed even if linguistically there's some fuzzyness: as I can equip a the highest leadership character in the list writing process with a BSB, include one lower leadership character, and then nothing but non-hero and lord choices for the rest. The army creation/choice process still isn't the part where I designate a general. So then what happens when it hits the table? Do I get disqualified? Or does RAI kick in and we use the list's highest eligible leadership character? Curious.

Good luck! If you can fit in a Bastiladon you'll be looking pretty good for magic potency (you could probably even get away with dropping one of the skinks down to a Lv1) Have you decided on which lore(s) to run? I prefer Heavens to Beasts myself. Iceshard Blizzard is such a Swiss army knife of usefulness.

I'd like a Bastilodon, but for right now I'm thinking that two level 2 skinks (one of each lore) will be enough. I don't need to dominate magic phases. Two level twos works fine for many other armies, so my sense is that it should be enough for lizards as well. And I definitely agree that Iceshard is an excellent tool for the toolkit.

Cheers.

Andrew

 

[hdctambien]

I suppose that I'm more convinced by the BSB becoming a non-option for who is general when it is assigned. Thus, that's a character that doesn't enter the pool of ones that gets considered.

The only time there is a pool of characters to be considered to be general is if there are more than one characters that all have the highest leadership. Otherwise, if there is only one character with the highest leadership that character is the entire pool. The fact that you upgraded a character to be BSB does not change the definition of "the character with the highest leadership".

The army creation/choice process still isn't the part where I designate a general. So then what happens when it hits the table? Do I get disqualified? Or does RAI kick in and we use the list's highest eligible leadership character? Curious.

If you only have one character with the highest leadership, then the army creation process is indeed the part where you designated your general. When you put the first character in your list, that character is your General, until you add another character with a higher Ld at which point that character becomes your general.

Only if you have more than one character with the highest leadership do you designate your general "before deployment". Otherwise, your general is automatically designated as "the character with the highest leadership". If you bought the BSB upgrade for that character then that character is both General and BSB, which is an illegal state (unless he is a Slann).

I don't think the RAI is "use the eligible highest leadership character", I think the RAI is "the BSB cannot be the highest Ld character if there is only one character with the highest leadership because that character has to be the General". So, I would say you have to fix your list before you play because it is not a legal list according to the rules as written and as intended.

 

[GhostWarrior]

I thought I might make a little bit of a disclaimer regarding my Beasts v. Heavens analysis:

I understand that Heavens is a very good lore, and often underrated by those who have armies with access to all 8. I ran a High Elf army for the tournament season all of last year, and for 2/3rds of the year, I took a lvl 4 Heavens (sometimes also backed by a Lvl 2 Heavens too). I was generally successful with this style, and Heavens garnered a lot of respect in my book.

Also, I'm running an Ogre list to tournaments this year while I paint up my Lizardmen Army for next years events, and I have a Lvl 2 Heavens Butcher to compliment my Lvl 4 Maw. I love making opponents -1 to hit against my Ogres, whilst also nerfing their cannons to help my Ironblasters (usually comped down to 1) win the artillery dual.

However:

It really depends on the list. For those of us who have been complaining that Saurus warriors are not the core combat killers we need them to be, I say - Beasts is a very good answer to that. Having Str5 T5 troops (or if very lucky S6 T6), in the key combat of the game, has been very useful from what I have found. Again, in my case, this is a Spear saurus unit (so 5-6 more attacks, usually with a CO character in the unit) with a supporting Engine nearby (6+ wards vs. all damage coming in the combat).

On protecting our core units from opposing artillery - which artillery are we concerned with? If its Volley guns, screen our troops with Skinks/use cover where possible. If its stone throwers/ doom divers - Wildform can help mitigate that. I would argue that Wildform is more useful against RBT's, as long as you can predict/force the intended target. On Cannons, I agree that if you have a lot of Cannon-worthy targets, Heavens may be the better choice for you.

I understand that when it comes to artillery protection, there is a trade-off when looking at Iceshard vs. Wildform. Wildform improves your protection to the unit you think the opponent is going to target (and yes, it doesn't give any advantage vs. cannons), while Iceshard reduces the effectiveness of BS artillery by 1 pt, and cuts the effectiveness of other artillery in half.

I have traditionally played lists that have been more counter-punchy and standoff-ish. My goal with the Lizard army I'm working towards is to be more maneuver and combat-focused. I've also been trying to build a list that reduces the necessity for magic to be successful in any one phase. This could be why Beasts fits those goals better.

Oh, and on the Lvl 1 vs. Lvl 2 thing - I agree that in the double Lvl 1 setup, a Solar Bastiladon is key. I am contemplating dropping that Basty to go 2 x Lvl 2's (and hope for Curse and/or Spear), to use that additional 80pts for something else - still something to playtest.

This is an awesome topic! Good discussions folks.

 

[VampTeddy]

Oh, and on the Lvl 1 vs. Lvl 2 thing - I agree that in the double Lvl 1 setup, a Solar Bastiladon is key. I am contemplating dropping that Basty to go 2 x Lvl 2's (and hope for Curse and/or Spear), to use that additional 80pts for something else - still something to playtest.

This is an awesome topic! Good discussions folks.

Oh yeah, completely forgot spear! Also a good beasts spell!

Though depending on your heroes / lords i wouldn't complain about savage beasts!

About the buff choices on saurus - Yes wildform is better, but it's also a more expensive cast in dice, and therefore you'll more often have to settle for just one buff!

In defensive aspects against single opponents it has a similar effect to heavens, 16.6% less chance to be hit, against 16,6% less chance to take a wound against str <6. Offensively we're talking a good bonus on fights you're even or better in for wildform, but in fights you're winning i'd argue -1 ld is golden.

The above argument however is definetely upset by the fact you go spears though! that makes the +1 str much stronger than it would be on hw/ shields (well at least somewhat stronger).

As a last pinter i had actually forgotten spear, which is a very nice beasts spell, and evens up the field somewhat more than my initial argument might have shown

 

[GhostWarrior]

@VampTeddy

I think you and I are on the same page regarding the Beasts vs. Heavens debate. It's definitely a build and meta-dependent choice.

 

[Sandrockkai]

I want you guys to know that I've been watching this post like a hawk. I started my Lizards about a year and a half ago and didn't have a Slann for a long time, but I've definitely come to rely on him lately. I've started playing lower points games and have tried a couple of Slann-less lists. This definitely gives some food for thought.

Also, I really like the idea of splitting the army into 150 pt. chunks. Definitely helps with a plug and play strategy to list building as it makes it easier to think about how to switch out units as I play with different list options.

Also, the Heavens/Beasts conversation was VERY informative.

Thanks for taking the time to post here guys!

 

[GCPD]

This thread has been great for inspiration guys, thank you! I've actually put the Dark Elves back on the shelf for another couple more weeks to give the no-Slann lists a run out.

 

[VampTeddy]

This thread has been great for inspiration guys, thank you! I've actually put the Dark Elves back on the shelf for another couple more weeks to give the no-Slann lists a run out.

I can really see why you like DE, since they have so many options and tactics to choose from, and we're so limited.

I feel that most of our limit lies in our choices of infantry, most other armies differentiate their armies through core selections and / or infantry selections, where we are really limited!

The ability to choose between a ranged or a melee or a fast melee really isn't something available to us.

Yes we can go with a skink cloud, and we can also go for a skink mass strategy, that mostly relies on hordes of skinks. However both of those usually end up using TG in special choices, since you need that infantry choice, and lets face it, TG are really only improved saurus, they do almost exactly the same!

We NEED so badly to have another infantry in core, because while we have a lot of fluidity around our infantry blocks, those will always be the same, and we will always rely on them.

That said. The options we do have in special an rare, and hero / lord do offer us a lot of good things!.

 

[GCPD]

This thread has been great for inspiration guys, thank you! I've actually put the Dark Elves back on the shelf for another couple more weeks to give the no-Slann lists a run out.

I can really see why you like DE, since they have so many options and tactics to choose from, and we're so limited.

For sure, and this prompted me to go and take a long look at my Lizardmen lists and identify what was the driving force behind that limitation. Ultimately, the answer was the Slan. Removing him has opened a lot of options because I'm not dependent on him fixing everything with magic (nor am I spinning in the wind when that snake eyes magic phase comes along). For instance, I've actually got Cold One Riders in the list I'm trying out on Saturday*

Your point regarding another choice in Core is valid, though. I don't think it even needs to be another infantry choice: just something in there to really shake things up. I will never understand why Jungle Swarms got moved into Special, for instance, where they will never be seen (is Swarm spam really that much worse than the Skink cloud?). Hell, they really missed a trick with the Bastiladon - make the Solar Engine variant a Special choice and the Sotek Arc a Core choice and its not too shabby. Core Monsters! Well, why not? I'd definitely run that list.

*Although, to be fair, I always write Cold One Riders into my lists... and they always come out before the game. Not this time!

 

[rantapanda]

Ive tend to run double beasts skinks on smaller games say 1000-1500 points.
you get at least one wyssan off per turn most of the time but when u get double wyssans off, its awesome
hellooooo S6T6 sauruses
also u can get both dispel scroll and the cube with you pretty conveniently

 

[GhostWarrior]

GCPD,

Did you get a chance to run a Slann-less list? How did it go for you? Inquiring Skinks want to know!

 

[GCPD]

Not yet A couple of things are really cutting into my free time at the moment, and what hobby time I do have is being spent in basing.

Rest assured, as soon as I do finally get a game in it will be reported on.

 

[lizard_sNow]

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but why not run one heavens and one beasts in the same list? I could also think you could run two engines, one as a mount even, and help the casting values out. What says you all?