8th Ed. New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbie

[skippy35671]

Hello all. This is my first posting here at Lustria Online, and i hope this is the right board to ask questions at.

Come the next week or two i'll be getting myself started with the game, but have some general questions regarding "standard" unit sizes, upgrades and if they are worth it, etc.

Basics first are Saurus Warriors. Should i run a block of 25, for rank bonuses and such, or is a bigger number more normal for the game? My thoughts were 30 man squads, seeing as 2 boxes gets 32 saurus, with 2 spares.

On that note, how about their weapons? With the scaly skin, im not sure if the shield evens out over the spears. More attacks i think helps them kill things better, with higher chances of predatory fighter working on the 6's.


Here is a question on Kroxxigors. I plan to run the big guys, but are they better on their own as say, a block of 6, as opposed to 3 in a little skink unit?

I have more questions but don't want to be "that guy" haha. Anyway thank you all for your time!

 

[hilburn]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Should i run a block of 25, for rank bonuses and such, or is a bigger number more normal for the game? My thoughts were 30 man squads, seeing as 2 boxes gets 32 saurus, with 2 spares.

Mostly people run saurus/TG 6 wide, lending to units of 24 or 30. I like doing units with 1/2-2/3rds models and a range of unit fillers to pack it out so you can get 2 units of 30 'saurus' from 3 boxes and have spares

On that note, how about their weapons? With the scaly skin, im not sure if the shield evens out over the spears. More attacks i think helps them kill things better, with higher chances of predatory fighter working on the 6's.

Engine of the Gods can give your saurus a replacement for their 6+ parry if you take spears, just remember they still have shields affecting their saves.

Here is a question on Kroxxigors. I plan to run the big guys, but are they better on their own as say, a block of 6, as opposed to 3 in a little skink unit?

'Better' is hard, against a ton of shooting it's nice to have skinks to soak up punishment thrown at your krox, but I am a big fan of big blocks of the scaly buggers. Just remember, a unit with 3 krox has 24 skinks, so hardly a little unit

I have more questions but don't want to be "that guy" haha. Anyway thank you all for your time!

Everyone was That Guy at some point, no shame in it. And welcome

 

[olderplayer]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

So much depends on the build and style of play. My son plays LM and has really mastered them, os a lot of this is based on that.

With Saurus, Temple Guard are superior in terms of value per point because TG get a halberd (+1S means a lot in 8th edition with a lot of high armour save and tougher stuff in the game right now), and light armour and +1 WS and have the ability to be stubborn with a Slann. Saurus are, thus, used to fill out the bulk of the core requirement and not much more. Saurus have low initiative and a mediocre WS. That usually means you need to run the unit larger (to be able to survive being hit first by most opposing units) and deeper to keep it potenitally steadfast and prevent steadfast on inferior opposing units at the end of combat and max attacks. There is a debate about sword and shield as compared with spears and shield and I confess I have not done the math, but with S4 saurus warriors and the potential to augment them to S5 and T5 with the lore of beasts signature spell on a skink priest you often want more attacks (spears) rather than the 6+ ward save in combat to the front that the shield provides. You get the same armour save either way. I've seen 6 wide by 4 or 5 or more deep for a modest unit and I've seen ten wide and five deep units being effective. It all depends on amount of terrain, play style, and the points limit you play at typically. In more competitive play and with the larger army sizes of 2400, 2500 and 3000 points, you really want to max ranks and/or attacks. If the FAQ comes out some day and clarifies whether the predatory fighter rule still allows extra attacks on rolls of 6 to hit for supporting attacks as I expedt, then I think that the math will slightly favor spears over handweapons for saurus.

You need to run some small skink units in your core allotment and learn to use small 10 model skink cohort and skink skirmisher units to max poison shooting, act as chaff and redirectors to contorl the flow of movement and choose your fights with your big expensive units. With their low leadership, you will probably want a musician for rallying if needed but no champions or standards. These are cheaper sacrificial units. The speed of skinks and their ability to take down tough, lower armour save models like war machines (which have high T to ranged attacks) and certain monsters. with poison shooting is vasting underrated. I now like javelines because they have quick to fire on them which means a greater hit rate with shooting and the ability to get up close and in the face of certain units you want to redirect or prevent from charging your units and to be able to countercharge. in your next turn. Quick to fire means no movement penalty for moving and shooting whereas blowpipes will end up losing poison shooting if they move and shoot at long range and double shoot or shoot at skirmishers or models behind soft cover or have a -1 to hit penalty on them for some reason. You want to be able to move and shoot at long range if you want to flee to force a failed charge and also to be able to get real close to block movement and charges anfd yet still be able to shoot (shooting weapons that are not quick to fire cannot shtand and shoot if the charging unit's movement value is greater than the distance between the units).
Skink cohort unitss: cheaper, can rank up, can add Krox to the unit, shields get you to a 5+ armours save and a 6+ parry save for normal attacks from the front in combat, but cannot reform for free and Consider a skink cohort unit with a single Krox in it for the superior leadership, greater chance of having a rank at the end of combat (which can mean the unit is steadfast), and the hitting power of the Krox.
Skink skirmisher units: more expensive, no shield means easily to kill with shooting and magic, and cannot have ranks or Krox, but can march and shoot (huge for dealing with war machines and at the start of the battle) and can reform as needed when marching and moving (not when charging though) which allows them to sneak through gaps and get on flanks a lot easier.

Given that i consider close of minimum core models and play at 2500, I may run one skink cohort with Krox for 110, two skink cohorts at 60 each, and one skink skirmisher at 70 (music not optional), I really only have room for a unit of 30 saurus with music and standard with spears to run 6 wide and five deep. I may put an oldblood in that unit to add punch in the front and consider a champion to take a challenge ffor the oldblood.

Given the change in rules, Krox with skinks are only so-so because the opposing models can now target the Krox in the unit when in combat. The only time I would consider Krox with skink cohorts is in a unit with Tetto, the skink special character and use that unit instead of saurus warriors for core. So the only advantages you gain with skinks is a lot of cheap ranks, some protection from shooting and magic attacks distrbiuted as shooting for the Krox, poison shooting only in the front rank (llose the ability for the second rank to shoot because Krox are typically filling that rank) and Krox count as two ranks wihen with skinks. But skinks even with a better armour save still die fast and can cause the unit to lose combat. A unit of 3 or 4 Krox or 6 Krox (2 deep, 3 wide) is a very useful flanking and hard hitting unit but would benefit by being partially screened if you face a lot of shooting. The ultimate resolution of the debate as to whether predatory fighter rule applied to suppering attacks will change the math for Krox in the second rank.

 

[teufelhund]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Welcome,
Seems like you're in good hands. I favor spears as well and any time you can add strength is good. Wyssans on TG with halberds is devastating. And I prefer cohorts with Krox to save points in special units and use the skinks as fodder. I like the idea of losing a 7 point model instead of a 50 point model. They also add combat res for ranks and on the chance your enemy fails their fear check skink WS 2 doesn't look so bad. I've had it happen to me when I was playing Brets. I failed a fear check with a knight lance and my charge didn't mean squat. I lost almost half my unit, was outnumbered, outranked, and beaten in combat. I failed my LD... Fled and got ran down. I was unlucky, but things like that do happen in Warhammer. Good luck and happy gaming.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

You need to run some small skink units in your core allotment and learn to use small 10 model skink cohort and skink skirmisher units ... With their low leadership, you will probably want a musician for rallying...

....

Given that i consider close of minimum core models and play at 2500, I may run ... one skink skirmisher at 70 or 80 (music optional)...

=> Hey man,

Good advice overall and a good read, but I felt I should point out that the skirmisher units cannot have a musician.

 

[Andy06r]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Ignoring the ancient steg (it can die), you often see 20/24 strong HW units, 30 strong spears, or 40+ hordes of HW/S. Basically the smallest and largest units benefit more from parry saves than the extra rank of supporting attacks.

I saw discussion on the skunk cohorts - a new way to run them in 8th is as a poison rank and file. Costs the same as a skirmisher unit and trades mobility for ranks and an extra round of poison. Dice out javelins, stand and shoot, and I4 poison to get the idea. Some people also experiment with 30 skinks and an egg or potion of strength chief, with the strength chief acting like an i6 kroxigor. Remember that the bs5 stand and shoot javelin is also s7!

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Good advice overall and a good read, but I felt I should point out that the skirmisher units cannot have a musician.

They also don't need it, since they can always reform for free as often as they like.

 

[hilburn]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Good advice overall and a good read, but I felt I should point out that the skirmisher units cannot have a musician.

They also don't need it, since they can always reform for free as often as they like.

Except for the +1Ld to rally..

 

[carno]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Spears all the way.
You get more attacks, especially in a very wide unit, which also gives you extra attacks from Predator Fighter. The shield/hand weapon isn't as good because you can already get a 6+ ward from EOTG, but shield/hand weapon is better in small, thin units.
Just my 20¢.

 

[skippy35671]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Sorry for the late response, was away this weekend. Thank you guys for the good advice!!!!

So My plan was to run Big dino heavy, without the Floaty Frog (as i call the slann). People make a good point the Ancient Stego with Engine of the Gods gives the same +1 parry save as shields do, so spears have an argument for use. The question next is... is it worth mounting a skink preist lvl 2 on an engine of the gods? Is this a terrible idea? Also Stegs of both kinds... Blow Pipes or giant Bow? I feel the long range bow and extra wounds is great, but 2d6 blowpipe shots sounds good too.

Without the Floaty Frogs, lil skink preists are our only alternative, and im just blanked on their use. Mind you im 100% new to the game, but i cant see how to make use of them. Where do they go? Mounted alone? In a block of Saurus/Temple Guard for safety in numbers? What equipment would they get? What lore to use? /mind explode/

Also a question about the so called "Cowboy" build i keep reading. Saurus Oldblood/Scar Vets, is this term meant for riding a Cardnosaur, or a Cold one? Ive read it as carnosaur, but when i think of a old west cowboy, i think of the gunslinger on the horse. The Coldone is WAY closer than a horse than the T-rex wannabe is imo.

Since i asked that question here is another. Is the cold one mounted Oldblood/Scar Vet better being in a unit of cold ones, or running alone attacking small units or flanking? Ive read some nay-says about Cold Ones, so im not sure. The Stupidity rule seems like a pain in the rear, yet Cold-Blooded and higher leadership from the OB/Scar Vet, makes that negligible.

The Bastilodons +1 initiative aura, looks great for our lowby "I" stat, but compared to the other units in the game, will it help? The solar beam from venusaur also looks pretty solid but im unfamiliar with how bound spells work. Couldnt it get dispelled every turn?

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Hello all. This is my first posting here at Lustria Online, and i hope this is the right board to ask questions at.

Come the next week or two i'll be getting myself started with the game, but have some general questions regarding "standard" unit sizes, upgrades and if they are worth it, etc.

Basics first are Saurus Warriors. Should i run a block of 25, for rank bonuses and such, or is a bigger number more normal for the game? My thoughts were 30 man squads, seeing as 2 boxes gets 32 saurus, with 2 spares.

This depens on the size of the game. At 2500pts I would probably recommend 30 saurus warriors, maybe 25 Templeguards, but prefereably 30.

On that note, how about their weapons? With the scaly skin, im not sure if the shield evens out over the spears. More attacks i think helps them kill things better, with higher chances of predatory fighter working on the 6's.

As it is now you can't use PF in the second or third rank and thus spears gain nothing from this rule. With Engine of the Gods you can get a 6+ ward save (same as parry) which can be used with spears, however I personally don't think 45pts for that is worth it, in the old book it was something else.
Now, this has been discussed before so some people might elaborate more on this, but personally I'd say sword = defensive unit and spears = offensive. This means that if you rely on say a unit of kroxigors, a stegadon or two or maybe a bus with an oldblood to charge the flank of your opponents while your saurus keeps them busy in the front I'd take the shields. We're afterall only talking 5-6 more attacks vs 6+ parry for every model in the unit

Take a look at this if your want: http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/saurus-spears-better-then-handweapon.13317/


Here is a question on Kroxxigors. I plan to run the big guys, but are they better on their own as say, a block of 6, as opposed to 3 in a little skink unit?

Better off alone. Skrox aren't as good as they used to be. If you want to read more I've tried running a big unit of these so look here:

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/viability-of-large-krox-units-in-8th-edition.13460/

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/first-report-11-krox-and-a-cowboy-bus-full-of-death.13441/

I have more questions but don't want to be "that guy" haha. Anyway thank you all for your time!

Please do be that guy. I've asked A LOT of question myself, just look at this (it might help you):

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/questions-from-a-noob-part-6-new-questions.12920/

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Spears all the way.
You get more attacks, especially in a very wide unit, which also gives you extra attacks from Predator Fighter. The shield/hand weapon isn't as good because you can already get a 6+ ward from EOTG, but shield/hand weapon is better in small, thin units.
Just my 20¢.

I dunno, it's 45pts for an upgrade you could've used on something else + it's gone when the steg dies. If you're too careful with it (having it as a buff dino in the back) means that you're essentially paying 300pts for the 6+ while the steg isn't doing anything.

I liked it better before. Personally I'd rely on having a block with say 5 wide 6 deep saurus unit with shields. I'll make them steadfast much longer and allow your big nasty things to hit, whatever you're holding, in the flank.

 

[Sleboda]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Blow Pipes or giant Bow? I feel the long range bow and extra wounds is great, but 2d6 blowpipe shots sounds good too.

=> Don't forget, there are two of them, so you get 4D6 shots.

The solar beam from venusaur also looks pretty solid but im unfamiliar with how bound spells work. Couldnt it get dispelled every turn?

=> It can be, but if you are going without the Slann (me too, by the way), then you may find that you have a few extra dice to use and this is a good way to make sure you are not wasting your resources.


I also wanted to make a comment or two about the general discussion of EotG vs. Parry Saves. I see people saying they are the same.
They are not. The Engine save is there for protection against all wounds, not just those inflicted in combat. Even in combat the wounds have to come from the front in order to get a parry - you can't take parry saves against flank and rear attacks, nor can you take them against stomps. The Engine works against all of these.

The biggest drawback of the saves that come from the Engine is that they can be removed by kill the Stegadon or not having the Stegadon in range.


The point is, they are not really the same thing and it sort of oversimplifies things to think of them as the same.

 

[Eladimir]

Re: New to Fantasy, new to lizardmen. Questions from a newbi

Cowboy means on a cold one.
Oladdin refers to an Old Blood on a flying carpet. (I love this one)