AoS NEW *rumor*

[Erta Wanderer]

girls girls you're both pretty

 

[Putzfrau]

you realize my commentary was a supplement to another player with the same issues right? so no, not JUST ME lol. additionally... even along your way of thinking... BoC?

but that's not the issue nor the complaint. the complaint isn't the company doing a faction dirty, its that if a project lead or author of a codex/battle tome is a player or fan of the assigned faction, that faction is better done than a book in which the lead/author is not a player or fan of the faction. this is not a phenomena restricted to GW in any way. I have been a project lead on multiple programs for DHS, and a leader of soldiers in combat. the amount of effort or motivation/passion put into a project/mission is ALWAYS determined by the enjoyment of the project by the workers. checking the box means sure, you might get a job done that "accomplishes the mission" but if your team wasn't happy with their assignment, they will not produce as good a product as a team that is.

its a HUMAN trait, just one that is more noticeable in a closed situation of a single company whos history is documented across 30+ years.

You have no idea who wrote the individual battletomes, so it's an impossible claim to make or defend.

 

[Canas]

girls girls you're both pretty

aww thank you.

I'm sorry dude, but I think you're being unnecessarily negative and nitpicking issues just to nitpick. I dont think anything you stated is fact, and i disagree strongly with almost every single opinion you listed.

Well then we'l just disagree. I think a big part of it is that we simply have different priorities, and since that's not going to change any time soon I doubt either one of us can convince the other.

You have no idea who wrote the individual battletomes, so it's an impossible claim to make or defend.

They actually regularly state who worked on what in white dwarf articles & articles on their site. It's requires a bit of effort to keep track of, but isn't exactly a secret.

 

[Putzfrau]

They actually regularly state who worked on what in white dwarf articles & articles on their site. It's requires a bit of effort to keep track of, but isn't exactly a secret.

But its often teams of rules writers and you don't know who is responsible for what rule or who is responsible for putting the package together or what.

Sam Pearson was the "lead rules writer" on the cities book. A long time human, elves, and duardin player. By your admission, that should mean the cities book is one of the good ones, but you had pegged it as something you don't like.

All i'm saying is, it's not exactly a one to one and we shouldn't be pretending like it is. It's an extremely nuanced situation with lots of people involved, lots of approvals, and lots of things to take into consideration. It seems fair to treat it as such.

I think it's fine to criticize GW, but everything can't be a criticism. There have been massive strides made in the last 30 years. The way this conversation is being portrayed makes it seem as if this game has few, if any, redeeming qualities.

I just don't think it's fair to talk about something in such a black and white way. I'm also kind of prickly about blanket negativity. I don't think it helps the community and I dont think it helps GW make a better game.

 

[Krissey]

aww thank you.


Well then we'l just disagree. I think a big part of it is that we simply have different priorities, and since that's not going to change any time soon I doubt either one of us can convince the other.


They actually regularly state who worked on what in white dwarf articles & articles on their site. It's requires a bit of effort to keep track of, but isn't exactly a secret.

To weight in on some of your claims, as I do actively and currently play Orruk Warclans:

- The books have gotten a lot more mechanically focused. The fluff has been reduced, especially in a combined book. There's less than half the fluff from the first Ironjawz Battletome, but they are also sharing that space with Bonesplittaz.

- Orruk Warclans is a powerful battletome. I am new to the game and struggle to get the most from it, but two other players in my club are at the top of the foodchain. There is a very good Slaanesh and Ossiarch Bonereapers player as well as Tzeentch Changehost. This is not a "weak" club and has top tier, meta armies. The Orruk Warclans players are just that good.

- There are three Ogor Mawtribes players in my club and boy howdy Ogors are GOOD and STRONG.

Destruction is in a good place with great battletomes and very competitive, even amongst the toppest tier armies.

Also: NEW RUMOUR - FedEx said my 3 Stegadons would arrive tomorrow. I hope it's true! I don't know what colors to paint them

 

[Putzfrau]

Also: NEW RUMOUR - FedEx said my 3 Stegadons would arrive tomorrow. I hope it's true! I don't know what colors to paint them

Woooo! I used almost like an ork skin green on my steg and really liked how it came out. I tend to prefer natural colors, but I've seen a lot of vibrant red or yellow ones that also look really good.

 

[ILKAIN]

You have no idea who wrote the individual battletomes, so it's an impossible claim to make or defend.

We don't need to know the individuals specifically, just the teams themselves. and again, in the past the authors WERE known, which established this history. and if we are all pretty ladies then we should know that once a cheater always a cheater lol

 

[Putzfrau]

We don't need to know the individuals specifically, just the teams themselves. and again, in the past the authors WERE known, which established this history. and if we are all pretty ladies then we should know that once a cheater always a cheater lol

Sorry, i might not be following but wasn't the argument that if you like the army you'll write a better book? Are you saying that there are whole teams of writers at GW that specifically have it out for certain armies?

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, I think i may just have been genuinely misunderstanding the point.

If that's the case, i sincerely apologize.

 

[ILKAIN]

Sorry, i might not be following but wasn't the argument that if you like the army you'll write a better book? Are you saying that there are whole teams of writers at GW that specifically have it out for certain armies?

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, I think i may just have been genuinely misunderstanding the point.

If that's the case, i sincerely apologize.

not exactly and no need to apologize, you're clearly asking for clarification lol.

I was not saying that entire teams dislike the faction, I was referencing my earlier comment of the motivation of the team based on enjoyment. morale is infectious. we have seen that here.. the swings of optimism and pessimism that occurred in the dark times of waiting on our new book for example.

the point is not as much as "they don't like the faction" as much as "its not their preferred faction". I do not think any project team/lead would intentionally sabotage a faction. I do believe they put more effort into and understand how to better implement concepts for a faction that they enjoy playing.

if you base the quality of a codex/tome on a scale of -5 to +5 where zero is a neutral, even keeled book compared to others I would rate very few books in the negatives in the modern time frame of GW. however there are books that we would all rate in the +1 to +5 zone. this is what im saying... its not that factions get tanked, but rather that some get favored, based on whos working the project.

 

[Canas]

But its often teams of rules writers and you don't know who is responsible for what rule or who is responsible for putting the package together or what.

There's usually only 2-3 writers max though from what I see in those articles. Of course they'l occasionally ask others for advise, but it's still a rather small team and biases can easily shown through.

Sam Pearson was the "lead rules writer" on the cities book. A long time human, elves, and duardin player. By your admission, that should mean the cities book is one of the good ones, but you had pegged it as something you don't like.


All i'm saying is, it's not exactly a one to one and we shouldn't be pretending like it is. It's an extremely nuanced situation with lots of people involved, lots of approvals, and lots of things to take into consideration. It seems fair to treat it as such.

Of course, there's loads of factors involved besides potential biases towards the army. It just seems a bit of an issue GW struggles with fairly consistently.

I think it's fine to criticize GW, but everything can't be a criticism. There have been massive strides made in the last 30 years. The way this conversation is being portrayed makes it seem as if this game has few, if any, redeeming qualities.

I just don't think it's fair to talk about something in such a black and white way. I'm also kind of prickly about blanket negativity. I don't think it helps the community and I dont think it helps GW make a better game.

There's plenty of things they do well. And there seem to have been loads of improvements. And yeah, I'm a relativly negative person I know sorry

To weight in on some of your claims, as I do actively and currently play Orruk Warclans:

With respect to destruction my main complaint is mostly that they don't seem to get a whole lot of love, aside from the gits. There've been only a few new models. Their soup-tomes don't seem to have done much to combine the lore or mechanics of their subfactions, especially the mawtribes don't really seem to have much synergy or interaction between their two subfactions. Don't get me wrong, it's functional and not bad competitivly, and since it's destruction a nice & simple juicy stat-block luckily goes a long way to making them feel properly destructive. But they don't exactly seem inspired. Like the new tectonic force the lumineth get is something I'd expect in a destruction army, an unstoppable force just crashing down and pushing everything out of the way. And it kind of annoys me that it's gone to an army that's themed around light of all things.

 

[Putzfrau]

not exactly and no need to apologize, you're clearly asking for clarification lol.

I was not saying that entire teams dislike the faction, I was referencing my earlier comment of the motivation of the team based on enjoyment. morale is infectious. we have seen that here.. the swings of optimism and pessimism that occurred in the dark times of waiting on our new book for example.

the point is not as much as "they don't like the faction" as much as "its not their preferred faction". I do not think any project team/lead would intentionally sabotage a faction. I do believe they put more effort into and understand how to better implement concepts for a faction that they enjoy playing.

if you base the quality of a codex/tome on a scale of -5 to +5 where zero is a neutral, even keeled book compared to others I would rate very few books in the negatives in the modern time frame of GW. however there are books that we would all rate in the +1 to +5 zone. this is what im saying... its not that factions get tanked, but rather that some get favored, based on whos working the project.

Hm, i see what you're saying. Personally, I think i'd attribute the result of that perceived favoritism to other things. I think some armies are easier to balance, and I genuinely think sometimes the rules writers just never expect the way certain things will be used. I'd be reluctant to attribute it to favoritism when there seems to be so many other variables that play a stronger role.

Either way, thanks for the response!

Of course, there's loads of factors involved besides potential biases towards the army. It just seems a bit of an issue GW struggles with fairly consistently.

I feel like my response above works for this as well. I think it's hard to say this is an issue GW struggles with when it's pretty impossible to determine which variable is the thing that's causing whatever issue (and like we saw, issues aren't always universal).

It just feels like an unfair assumption based on a personal opinion/bias, not necessarily something grounded on numerous, specific instances.

Like I said tho, I think it's kind of impossible to prove one way or the other. So who knows!

 

[ILKAIN]

Hm, i see what you're saying. Personally, I think i'd attribute the result of that perceived favoritism to other things. I think some armies are easier to balance, and I genuinely think sometimes the rules writers just never expect the way certain things will be used. I'd be reluctant to attribute it to favoritism when there seems to be so many other variables that play a stronger role.

Either way, thanks for the response!

no problem.

the way I figure it, if we both see the same things, but assess the data differently, then there is no way to adjust another's view without additional or updated data. that is the point in which an agree to disagree is generally the only viable conclusion.

which is precisely why I said the same thing with Calebs "summoning isn't dead" post lol. he literally used the same evidence I would in a debate, but drew a different, albeit logically sound, conclusion.

 

[Kilvakar]

. its not that factions get tanked, but rather that some get favored, based on whos working the project.

I think this sums up what everyone has been saying about favoritism quite well. Nobody thinks that GW intentionally makes some books bad and other books good. But as you were saying, some books clearly have a level of excitement behind them that others do not. You can tell with a new release how excited the team was to be working on it, especially compared to other books that have a tone that makes you feel that the writers either weren't excited about the faction they were working on or just didn't know what to do so they put something together because they had to.

Right now, it's very clear that LRR have had a lot of love and excitement fueling their book.

Again, I do not think they are the most broken thing ever released. But reading the leaks gives me a clear feeling that the people writing it were thinking "oh yeah! Let's give them this ability, and that spell, that will be really cool! We love Elves!"

Using our book as an example, it definitely doesn't feel like it had a lot of love or excitement behind its writing. That does not mean I think it's bad. I actually think our book is generally very good, with a few glaring exceptions. But it definitely felt like whoever was writing it did not really have the same level of excitement for the faction. It felt like the writers were just going "oh, I guess we should have one sub faction with the same abilities as before, but weaker. And let's make the other sub faction decent in melee. And I guess let's give them terrain related rules because... They live in jungles? Yeah, that should work."

Now, aside from the next to useless terrain related rules for coalesced, and the fact that they nerfed all of the units that used to be really good in our old battletome, the new seraphon book is actually very competitive. But a lot of it just feels lazy, like they just decided to put together something with decent mechanics and gave it no other thought. Sure, bound endless spells are great. But why wouldn't they give us our own endless spells? We get a really cool looking faction terrain piece, but it's the only faction terrain piece that is useless to your faction 50% of the time. Not only that, it actually can benefit the enemy.

Everything that they did felt like they were approaching it from a purely mechanical standpoint. A "let's make this good, but not too good" kind of approach. Books like the Lumineth read like the whole time they were writing it they were thinking "Yeah! This is going to be so awesome!" It doesn't actually mean that they're going to perform any better in tournaments then us, but I can definitely see how some people would find it annoying that certain factions seem to have a lot more of the writers passion behind them than others.

 

[Canas]

Hm, i see what you're saying.
I feel like my response above works for this as well. I think it's hard to say this is an issue GW struggles with when it's pretty impossible to determine which variable is the thing that's causing whatever issue (and like we saw, issues aren't always universal).

It just feels like an unfair assumption based on a personal opinion/bias, not necessarily something grounded on numerous, specific instances.

Like I said tho, I think it's kind of impossible to prove one way or the other. So who knows!

GW is the only company that I know of that has this problem so consistently though, which is weird. Maybe it's the company & writers, maybe it's just something that's more noticeable in wargaming, maybe it's more noticeable due to how they release, I don't know. But it's a peculiar thing.

snip

Very much this. And in the case of the lumineth you can add on the fact that they have several rules which I'd love to see in, and would make thematic & mechanical sense for, other factions which just get a recent, relativly underwhelming, release (like us). Which makes it seem like they stored all the really cool ideas they had while working on the the "boring" projects and saved them up for when they got to work on an "exciting" project. Which just kind of stings.

 

[ILKAIN]

GW is the only company that I know of that has this problem so consistently though, which is weird. Maybe it's the company & writers, maybe it's just something that's more noticeable in wargaming, maybe it's more noticeable due to how they release, I don't know. But it's a peculiar thing.


Very much this. And in the case of the lumineth you can add on the fact that they have several rules which I'd love to see in, and would make thematic & mechanical sense for, other factions which just get a recent, relativly underwhelming, release (like us). Which makes it seem like they stored all the really cool ideas they had while working on the the "boring" projects and saved them up for when they got to work on an "exciting" project. Which just kind of stings.

I think its more that GW has been around with the same product for 30+ years that gives us a lot of evidence, and the fact that generally speaking once players start Warhammer they tend to stay in it, at varying levels of competitive/casual, for a long time. when you are looking at something ina vacuum like that you can more easily track the occurrences of the favoritism. *shrug* THAT is a personal opinion though lol

 

[Canas]

Meh, there's plenty of long-lived TGC's and several videogames who should've been along long enough to show signs of it as well.Though few that can boast of existing 30+ years and actually being a living, changing game.

 

[Putzfrau]

Honestly curious at this point, what would you guys consider are some recent examples of this favortism in play? And what is it about those books that make you think it's favoritism rather than some other variable?

Let's ignore seraphon and LRR for the time being, just cause i feel like we've talked about them at length already.

 

[Kilvakar]

A couple examples come to my mind. Keep in mind that this is not a comparison of is this Army more powerful than ours. It's a question of whether the battletome was better written, better put together, and showed more love and passion on the writer's part. I'll say in advance that the biggest sign that I see is when there's a clear theme and Direction behind the army that they are writing. For example:

Ogor Mawtribes

First of all, you can tell that they just had a lot of fun writing this book. They get all sorts of very strong but also very thematic abilities. Might makes right, Army wide mortal wounds on the charge, Mount traits, extra speed to help them get into combat faster, and their different sub factions are very well written.

Orruk Warclans

They knew exactly what they wanted to do with this Army and they did it well. Orcs like to get in your face and kill things, and basically everything in this Army revolves around getting in your face and killing you. While Age of Sigmar is an objective game, they get to play the table your opponent game. Army wide speed bonuses, extra movement, extra damage, and on top of it all they're hard to kill. Once again, their different sub-factions are very well written and very strong, and they also get Mount traits.

Ossiarch Bonereapers

I really don't think I need to say much about these guys. They broke the meta when they came out, and they're still near the top of it to this day. Plus, as other people have said, the death Alliance has gotten a lot of focus and is also the only Grand Alliance that really resembles an alliance at all.

I would say Tzeentch, but I honestly feel like that was more a result of them throwing a bunch of random fun ideas together without thinking too much about how they would interact with each other. But just like the others I've mentioned, the writers were approaching this tome from a position of loving Chaos and Tzeentch in particular, rather than being concerned about balancing everything. Because they didn't balance them at all.

Idoneth Deepkin

Once again, the writers had a clear idea of what they wanted and they went all in on it. Back when they came out, they also were one of the most overpowered armies at the time. Not so much anymore, but that's entirely because of power creep. And even though they haven't been updated since they were released, they are still really strong. But again, the excitement and passion put into their development was evident.

So all in all, I would say that it definitely feels like favoritism when some books are written poorly, are lacking features that are commonplace in the game nowadays, have weak or useless rules, or lack a clear coherent theme to their army. I don't mean just a theme in terms of appearance, I mean a theme in terms of the Army's abilities, how they work together with each other, and whether or not they have a clear idea of what that army is all about and how it should play.

 

[Canas]

Honestly curious at this point, what would you guys consider are some recent examples of this favortism in play? And what is it about those books that make you think it's favoritism rather than some other variable?

Let's ignore seraphon and LRR for the time being, just cause i feel like we've talked about them at length already.

- Us. Yeah yeah, I know wasn't supposed to mention us . But we're simply one of the more obvious ones. We don't seem to have anyone who cares about or understands our faction which shows in nearly every way. Hell they're not even willing to decide on either the magic space aztec lizards or the primal aztec lizards who live in the jungle. No we get both subfactions and as a consequence neither is really fleshed out. And that's ignoring the mechanics we lack (mount traits, prayers etc.). At least we're kept reasonably competitive I guess.

- LRR: Again yeah yeah, I know. But they're the most recent, and the best example of a faction getting mechanics or fluffy rules that'd fit well with other factions. But I won't restate all those again

- Mawtribes: their new tome basicly just made the 2 factions into 2 subfactions but with very little interaction between the two. The main difference seems to be that now the other subfaction no longer eats up your ally budget... This is generally an issue with soup battletomes. Weirdly the actually new rules do seem good. Might makes right is great, everything having an unstoppable charge is great, the hungry mechanic is great.All of that is great and thematic. Yet very little was done to integrate the 2 subfactions into 1 big faction. I'd almost go as far as to say the actual writers didn't want it to be 1 big faction.

- SCE: At the start of AoS they were the posterboys with all the releases, now they seem to have dissappeared release-wise. Hell, they don't even have an updated tome that includes all their units. Yeah it'd be their third tome, but you're also missing like 10 units or something. They just seem to have been dropped by the wayside all of a sudden though this might also just be because they were so overpresent up till recently.

- Undeath: Seem to have taken the throne from the SCE, getting all the releases being in the forefront of the story. And also, being literally the only faction that's united under the absolute rule of 1 ruler. Yeah some of the vampires and Mortarchs scheme, but there's also been fluff outright stating that they know Nagash knows and can't do anything whatsoever to touch him. Whomever writes their fluff seems to reaaaaaaaaallly likes Nagash. Put in an opposing death faction already. Or at least put in some internal strife. They barely feel like seperate factions, and more like subfactions of Legions of Nagash. The fact that you can legally combine a lot of their units doesn't help either with making them properly seperate factions...

- CoS/"Regular" humans/aelves/dwarves: they're basicly irrelevant fluff-wise and only really serve to be killed by magical monsters and saved by demigods. The fact that they became a soup battletome also doesn't help. The least they could've done is let the various races take up specific roles in their army (e.g. dwarfs bring the artillery and heavy infantry, elves the wizards & cavalry, humans the bodies and every single army is by definition a mixed force with synergies between races) but even that didn't happen. Instead you basicly have 3-4 factions sharing 1 tome,with very little to actually encourage mixing of races. The tome seems to basicly only exist to placate those who had old collections. O, and of course 0 new releases.

- Slaanesh, somehow the only one who's summoning never seems to truly be taken down. Also, it's the only one who's summoning cannot be denied unless you basicly table him. He'l always generate some points, and unless tabled will probably have a hero standing somewhere who can summon back at least some of their losses Everyone else can be kept on 0 points, at least in theory. Or can only summon around one or 2 heroes like us needing a Slann or astrolith. But not Slaanesh, every hero counts, and even instantly tabling him would generate him points. That's of course ignoring how efficient and easy their summoning is. You'd think at the very least their summons would be excessivly expensive. Also, they were the first faction to start bringing loads of CC all of a sudden, making enemies fight last, forcing duels, forcing them to come closer.

- Bonereapers specificly: they can do everything, have special totaly-not command abilities (consequently also making them defacto immune to certain effects) and have no particular weaknesses as they can do everything. Also fluff-wise they're unstoppable. Which you know, fun.

- Idoneth, super thematic, super powerfull on release.

 

[Grotpunter]

Literally every single example could easily be turned on its head and arguemented for being the exact opposite. It is subjective. Just because you feel a certain way about X faction does in no way mean there is clear "favortism" at play.