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AoS NEW *rumor*

Xuil said:
A fine balance for that would be to retcon (or move forward) the fluff around 'remembering' or summoning units. Stronger units being able to teleport isn't so much of an issue if they aren't disposable. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is at least a faction choice, to play living (stronger) lizards and lose access to summoning.

The other huge shift I feel we need is a move back to named heros. At the very least, Tetto'Eko and Kroq'gar should be unique characters again.
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i like the fact that we are daemons but chaos has real people and i don't see how we cant ither keep us as made of starlight and fury but give us personalities and bring back the lords
 
Xuil said:
I have to believe whoever writes the tome has to have a reasonable idea of what is 'normal' now though?

I have lost count of the times I have been asked "Your lances only have 1" reach?", "He only has a 5+ or 4+?", "Any rend? ... It's a dinosaur?", "Those are one wound each?" The powercreep in even basic stats is one of the main reasons we need an update, to my mind.
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Yeah, I imagine that unless something truly crazy happened and Seraphon started winning tourney after tourney, the recent tournament listings wouldn't matter too much. They're design turn around for battletomes, updates, and expansions is usually at least a year (more commonly two years), so if we do see a Seraphon update, the details for it would have been developed many months ago.

I think it's reasonable to expect an update for us some time in 2020, but I honestly couldn't say when or how good it would be. It seems like the less favored factions get a passable to decent new battletome and maybe an endless spell or a scenery piece (spells for Gloomspite, nothing for Cities of Sigmar, nothing for Orruk Warclans, scenery for Ogors), while the favored factions get the whole nine yards and a strong battletome. Personally, we don't have any mechanics that I'm super attached to, so I don't think I'll feel like I get burned if they take something away (R.I.P. Great Companies; you were so much more interesting than bonus command points).

That being said, the whims of GW are inscrutable and cannot be known by the Euclidean-oriented mind as we understand things.
 
Brandfas Machine said:
I think it's reasonable to expect an update for us some time in 2020, but I honestly couldn't say when or how good it would be. It seems like the less favored factions get a passable to decent new battletome and maybe an endless spell or a scenery piece (spells for Gloomspite, nothing for Cities of Sigmar, nothing for Orruk Warclans, scenery for Ogors)
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Ahem, Gloomspite got a scenery piece as well as spells (the Loonshrine).
 
Xuil said:
A fine balance for that would be to retcon (or move forward) the fluff around 'remembering' or summoning units. Stronger units being able to teleport isn't so much of an issue if they aren't disposable. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is at least a faction choice, to play living (stronger) lizards and lose access to summoning.

The other huge shift I feel we need is a move back to named heros. At the very least, Tetto'Eko and Kroq'gar should be unique characters again.
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meh, movement heavy abilities are always going to be a pain to balance, and are always going to result in good players being able to dominate with them. Especially if it's a global teleport. Imho the teleport should've never been a thing, but removing it now is going to be difficult.
 
You're absolutely right, I'd forgotten about the loonshrine! What a gorgeous scenery piece, too.

Reading over my previous post, I didn't intend for it to be as critical sounding. I don't think any of the newest battletomes have been bad or neglecting for their factions, I more intended to convey that GW's favored factions always seem to get a little extra somethin' somethin' when they get an update.
 
I bought the Mawtribes book today and my first impressions are that it's better than 'passable to decent'. I don't think they'll hang with Hedonites and such but I can already think of some builds that could be very strong.

The new allegiance abilities are mostly what makes it promising - the warscroll tweaks less so, but units like Ironguts and Stonehorns were already good on paper. This is why I think Seraphon would need changes of a greater magnitude than this when their time for an update comes. 'Tweaks' aren't going to cut it for units that are so weak that they dont have a practical purpose, like Trogs or (arguably) most Saurus.

I would actually be pretty happy with our current allegiance abilities being done away with entirely, as they place significant constraints on the balancing of our lacklustre warscrolls. That is to say, we shouldn't be able to summon in a unit of Saurus that is as killy as they deserve to be, and then teleport it into our enemies faces.

We need a full restructure in a similar fashion to Fyreslayers - buff the crap out of battleline and give us allegiance abilities that compliment the units rather than constrain their ability to be strong.
 
PabloTho said:
I would actually be pretty happy with our current allegiance abilities being done away with entirely, as they place significant constraints on the balancing of our lacklustre warscrolls. That is to say, we shouldn't be able to summon in a unit of Saurus that is as killy as they deserve to be, and then teleport it into our enemies faces.

We need a full restructure in a similar fashion to Fyreslayers - buff the crap out of battleline and give us allegiance abilities that compliment the units rather than constrain their ability to be strong.
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well that might be a bit much we have(or had) solid units skinks razordons and rippers where very good at the start of the year before we got left behind and our aliegence abilities didn't break things. teleports and summoning both have harsh downsides and you can never summon and then teleport. summoning forses us to play down 450 points if we want to do it wel and we can only bring in min sized units wich makes things very hard to buff, it's also tide to a very expensive and squishy model. teloporting if you know whats going on has solid counter play and we don't havve many +s to charge so we still have to make a 9 which is hard and we do it better else where shadowstrike and chameleons and it still isn't broken. ignoring that a few armies do our movement only better orks can throw muuuuch better units and more of them all the way across the board and they have a teloport of their own that has a +3 to cast.
i do want to see our summoning change so we can use our slann properly but i don't want to loose it most of our models would be usless and summoningg alows badly costed units to still see play.
 
Erta Wanderer said:
well that might be a bit much we have(or had) solid units skinks razordons and rippers where very good at the start of the year before we got left behind and our aliegence abilities didn't break things. teleports and summoning both have harsh downsides and you can never summon and then teleport. summoning forses us to play down 450 points if we want to do it wel and we can only bring in min sized units wich makes things very hard to buff, it's also tide to a very expensive and squishy model. teloporting if you know whats going on has solid counter play and we don't havve many +s to charge so we still have to make a 9 which is hard and we do it better else where shadowstrike and chameleons and it still isn't broken. ignoring that a few armies do our movement only better orks can throw muuuuch better units and more of them all the way across the board and they have a teloport of their own that has a +3 to cast.
i do want to see our summoning change so we can use our slann properly but i don't want to loose it most of our models would be usless and summoningg alows badly costed units to still see play.
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The Slann should see play as a devastating caster instead of a mandatory summoning machine.

And poorly costed units not seeing play should be remedied by costing them correctly or making them stronger... That's part of what I meant by summoning placing restrictions on unit power.

Power creep has reached the point where we can't really remain viable with our current warscroll set-up. Even if we kept our current summoning, Slaanesh is capable of summoning as well and also has a far more consistently viable array of warscrolls. There is no excuse for Seraphon units to be as weak (with some notable exceptions) as they are now.

Synergy is the aim of the game, but no other army has a strategy that is as contingent on synergy as ours. We need to stack buffs like crazy, and missing any one of them by having a hero sniped or missing an important role can turn the whole game to custard in an instant. Yes, this can happen to other armies, but not with the same degree of ease.

I apologise if this comes off as a rant, but I just want my dinosaur army to FEEL like a dinosaur army, not wispy thought-ghosts!
 
PabloTho said:
The Slann should see play as a devastating caster instead of a mandatory summoning machine.
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yes all the yes

PabloTho said:
And poorly costed units not seeing play should be remedied by costing them correctly or making them stronger... That's part of what I meant by summoning placing restrictions on unit power.
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they should be but often arn't look at idk as a egsample you only see eels. it shouldent be the goal but trogladons are only worth 90ish points and the only reason we use them is they summon well. but yes they should get it right in the first place.

PabloTho said:
Power creep has reached the point where we can't really remain viable with our current warscroll set-up. Even if we kept our current summoning, Slaanesh is capable of summoning as well and also has a far more consistently viable array of warscrolls. There is no excuse for Seraphon units to be as weak (with some notable exceptions) as they are now.
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yup it was bad a year ago and it is worse now

PabloTho said:
Synergy is the aim of the game, but no other army has a strategy that is as contingent on synergy as ours. We need to stack buffs like crazy, and missing any one of them by having a hero sniped or missing an important role can turn the whole game to custard in an instant. Yes, this can happen to other armies, but not with the same degree of ease.
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khorn mortals are worse but their base units are better so they can recover better.
it takes us from being a good army to being a glass brige it does work but badly and it's easy to break.

PabloTho said:
I apologise if this comes off as a rant, but I just want my dinosaur army to FEEL like a dinosaur army, not wispy thought-ghosts!
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feel free i love to rant i think im getting a reputation for it. we can be rant budies. and it is sad thet we are so pillow fisted and glass skind
 
GreenyRepublic said:
Sits here awkwardly having never used summoning in an AoS game before and not really understanding how it works

(Please somebody fill me in)
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it works difrently for each faction il go over seraphons (ask and i can go in depth on the others)
we gain selestial summoning points from 3 places 1 a turn if a slann is general 1d3 for each astrolith on the board and 3 for each spell a slann choses not to cast these points are used to pay for units that can be dropped within 12" of our slann or a astrolith. usually this means our slann sits in the vary back and does nothing so we can bring the bodies nesesery to compeat. we are the 2-3rd best summoners in the game
 
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GreenyRepublic said:
Sits here awkwardly having never used summoning in an AoS game before and not really understanding how it works

(Please somebody fill me in)
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Basically, you collect conjuration points (CPs).
3 pts for each spell that your Slann / Kroak doesn't cast , +1 CP if the Slann is the General , +d3 for 1 or more astrolith bearer.
Those CPs can be used in any amount to summon (at the end of the move phase) one or more units from the table you find in the GHB2019 spending the relative amount of points.

Also this
 
Okay, but I assume we can't just spawn endless supplies of units right? How does points cost come into this in matched play? Or can we just 'resurrect' destroyed units indefinitely?
 
GreenyRepublic said:
Okay, but I assume we can't just spawn endless supplies of units right? How does points cost come into this in matched play? Or can we just 'resurrect' destroyed units indefinitely?
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we can summon in as many units as we can pay for no limit. the problem is that the later in the game it is the less usfull new units are
 
GreenyRepublic said:
Okay, but I assume we can't just spawn endless supplies of units right? How does points cost come into this in matched play? Or can we just 'resurrect' destroyed units indefinitely?
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The raising of dead units is not one of our things. That's Legion of Nagash.

Points wise, in matches play, you don't have to pay NOTHING for the summoned units . Seraphon can conjure units even in the first turn, with the army still at full strenght.
The cost for summon is included in the cost of the Slann, 260 pts that are just sitting there to collect CPs , without actually cast spells (the main feature of one of the stronger caster in the game).

Summoning is very useful but it comes at a cost.
A summoning list employs a lot of points that are just there for that purpose .
 
Killer Angel said:
The raising of dead units is not one of our things. That's Legion of Nagash.
Points wise, in matches play, you don't have to pay NOTHING for the summoned units . Seraphon can conjure units even in the first turn, with the army still at full strenght.
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Okay yeah but models don't buy/build/paint themselves. ;)

Point taken though, that's cool.
 
Random useless information: we can accumultate maximum of 122 Celestial Conjuration points per game. Correct me, if anything is wrong.

Kroak gives 3 points per cast attempt+1 for every Hero phase. Balewind+Cogs gives 2 more casts, and if battle takes place in Ghyrran, it has one more attempt for Command ability (at least RAW nothing stops it). Astrolith gives maximum 3 more CCP. This brings us to 3x7+1+3=25 per turn. By turn 125-3 (because of balewind cast) = 122 points would be generated.

So, turn 5 you can surprise your opponent with one of the following:

- 3 Dread saurians;
- 5 bastiladons;
- 6 Engines of Gods;
- 20 Razordons/Salamanders;
- 30 Ripperdactyl riders;
- 120 Saurus Warriors;
- 200 skinks, etc.

This means, that Seraphon player can bring up to 1600 additional matched play points.
 
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