8th Ed. New Player Seeking Anti Artillery Tactica

[Raymond Caleatry]

I have only been playing for a couple of months, but already I have experienced the wrath of artillery. We have loads of cool monsters which are great at getting shot by these things. I have searched the Tactica and I didn't find a dedicated topic on this. I would love for the community to pool together all their knowledge on the following topics.

1) How to minimise, or redirect damage from key monsters

2) How to avoid damage altogether by using terrain, or magic etc.

3) How to avoid damage by getting monsters into combat quickly

4) How to quickly neutralise war machines, and what percentage of your armies points should be directed at this task. I suspect there to be a golden ratio of points invested in monsters to points used to protect them.

If there is a topic about this already, please point me towards it.

Thanks

Ray

 

[Lotxapati]

If the artillery isn't very protected by close combat units (they're usually on a hill far away from the centre of the battle, aren't they?) I would just recommend terraddons/ripperdactyl riders. It shouldn't take very long until you've wiped out most cannons or rocklobbas etc. If you don't have those models, use magic. I have wiped out all of my enemy's artillery with just one comet of casandora (powerful version of it). Chain lightning is also really effective for this purpose.

 

[Raymond Caleatry]

I think the problems start at deployment. I see a lot of battle reports where monsters get taken out turn 1, before the war-machines can be dealt with.

Ray

 

[Blugunner38]

Chameleon skinks are a great anti warmachine unit. 8 will average 3 wounds on a standard warmachine.

 

[Lotxapati]

Yeah, I know the feeling of getting my monsters picked out in the first round of combat. You could put them near an EotG so they get 6++, but I wouldn't rely on it. I'd say the only safe way to save your monsters from artillery is to kill it of quickly, with either flying or chameleon or both.

Oh I almost forgot, the Iceshard blizzard spell. If cast on a cannon for example, it must roll a d6 before resolving the shot, on 1-3 the shot is lost (y) I think there are more spells with a similiar effect.

 

[Mr Phat]

I think the problems start at deployment. I see a lot of battle reports where monsters get taken out turn 1, before the war-machines can be dealt with.

Ray

what you are asking for is the opposite scenario: that warmachines gets taken out turn 1 they get to deal with monsters...its all about who gets to strike first and there isnt really a way to secure yourself the first turn.
What you can do is take fewer units to deploy to give you the +1 for first turn (but thats a high cost / low gain gamble)

what you also can do is have tons of things to deploy so that you are sure to deploy monsters AFTER he deploy his warmachines, hopefully this means that you can make him deploy them bad or have your monsters out of range.

 

[Raymond Caleatry]

I also have just read that you could take cheap monsters to block the line of affect to more expensive ones. The new cheaper Razerdons were given as an example.

Will a monsterous creature stop a cannon ball even if it is killed outright by the cannon. Also do all war machines need line of sight to be able to target? I have not played against rock lobbas or equivalent so i do not know if they need to see their target?

 

[Scalenex]

If Rock Lobbers can't see their target they can fire indirectly. They get double the scatter but firing indirectly seems to work okay for my opponents. I kind of view cannons as an artillery piece that is great at killing dinosaurs and okay at killing infantry while rock lobbers are a an artillery piece that is great at killing infantry and okay at killing dinosaurs.

Razordons are good for blocking cannonballs because one third of the time the entire cannon damage falls onto one Skink. That's still not good odds.

Terrain wise you can hide your dinosaurs behind terrain pieces tall enough to cover them, but those pieces are few and far between unless you make your own terrain. The best terrain feature you can use are barriers, which stop a cannonball outright (once).

At best Terradons and Chameleon Skinks will take out war machines on the second turn. Another way you can drop war machines is to use a Skink Priest to serve as an arcane vassal for Spirit Leech.

There's little we can do to thwart artillery though. Cannons are rocks and monsters are scissors.

If I know for a fact I'm playing an artillery heavy army like Dwarfs or Empire I usually just try to stock up on artillery resistant units. Very large Saurus Warrior blocks. Cold One Cavalry. Kroxigor (or Skroxigor). Another strategy is to take so many big dinosaurs it's impossible to shoot them all before they are upon the enemy.

 

[Moniker]

That's what I like doing! Target saturation. Some of em just aren't going to make it. Though I'm not so used to this new book, I used to take a carnosaur a steg and an Engine. Usually I'd throw the regular stegadon somewhere super obvious and have the Carnosaur within the bubble. The baby steg is essentially just chucked under the bus...

You can also turn them sideways, so hopefully the cannon over shoots. That's sort of a last ditch effort.

 

[Raymond Caleatry]

I think target saturation is valid against an enemy with on 1 artillery piece, but against an empire army or dwarf army that may have 3 or more, the target saturation method will probably fail.

I think that Phatmotha-phucka's method of placing monsters last, outside of field of view is the strongest. This that if you manage to go first its a nice surprise, but you are planning to go second.

I just got home and read the section on war machines. One thing I noted about cannons is that they cannot fire where they cannot see, so they cannot shoot over their troops to hit large targets. This is because they need to place the initial marker on the ground in front of the monster. This could be quite limiting for cannons. It doesn't work for rock lobbas though.

I suppose I am looking for a way to take a single monster, like a scar-vet on a carnasaur, and not have him die before he does something.

Ray

 

[rantapanda]

Hi. Im a fairly new to the game, and havent played too many games yet. But doesnt anyone feel the game a bit broken. vs lizardmen, artillery seems to always pay themselves back. Cannons kill dinos, mortars decimate skinks and those empire whatchacallthem with multiple shots are fairly good vs saurus.

getting rid of them is, like already said in earlier in the thread, a big gamble, especially when playing a low point match. 6 chamoskinks should statistically get rid of a HE bolt thrower, but not 100% surely, and that is if they get the first turn. if not, theyll probably get decimated by artillery, shooting, flyers, cavalry and perhaps even by normal infantry.. and then its just a huge waste of points. If they leave even one wound on the artillery model, theyr pretty much useless.

Flyers is another choice, but they get their change after the enemy has reacted, and i feel flyers are easy to counter, again with shooting or magic. And the unit size is 3+ so u need to get atleast 105-120 point depending if ur getting terradons or ripperdactyls per artillery, that seems quite alot again for a gamble, and will divert points away from where they are needed to secure a victory.

Casandora is an option as well, if u get the first turn, the comet has chances to come down before they can shoot.. but with magic the toughness of the machine is used, which is usually 7.. so unless the comet lingers for a while it probably doesnt do anything and by the time it comes down, the artillery have already done their job.

Perhaps just deploy everything, chamos, ripperdactyls and get a couple of bastiladons with solar engine to make sure the artillery is silenced for good... thoughts?

-beachpanda

 

[Rhodium]

Target saturation


Chameleons do a good job but a good player will deploy corretly, stopping scouts going in behind which means you chamos have to run past his main line to get to the warmachines, never mind units sitting in front to block line of site to the warmachine


Terradons and rippers are good but too squishy to magic and shooting, if you get turn 1 after a vanguard you should be able to safely fly over their line and be ready for a turn 2 charge but if not, expect them to be shot out if the sky

Magic can help but unreliable, dwarfs tend to dispell most of your spells!
Iceshard, net and phas can shut down a war machine
And amber spear and laser will help destroy it
But don't rely on this


I like target saturation, if I have multiple things worth shooting at that are running at you, you gotta pick.

For example last time I played dwarfs, had two bastilidons, one scar vet on a cold one and a skink chief on a terradons heading for the gun line.

In his first he firstly and rightly killed the chief with a grude thrower (M10 swiftstride is dangerous) but then shot his cannons at a bastilidon causing a misfire and 2 wounds. A movement 4 monster is no immediate threat, he should have shot at the scar vet (would have killed him) but he had target saturation, panicked and shot at the big thing.
The scar vet with M7 and swiftstride, (t6 with a 1+ doesn't care about BS shooting and magic) made the charge easily next turn and killed all three warmachines in three combat phases (charge, overrun and second charge)


But in that list I also had 5 chamos, 3 terradons and 3 rippers, the terradons got a cannon before dying to handguns but the other two got shot off before they could get into position

So in summary I like saturation, 3-4 dangerous monsters or mounted characters and some scouts and flyers should give you a good chance against war machines.

 

[Dreyer]

2 units of chameleons, a unit of terradons and the heavens signature spell usually do it for me. But I don't actually think we are that vulnerable to artillery.

 

[Smexygor]

Tell that to my dead stegs and bastiladons and stone thrower'd Temple Guard.

 

[Dreyer]

Tell that to my dead stegs and bastiladons and stone thrower'd Temple Guard.

Ill be sure to send them a letter

 

[rantapanda]

Target saturation

The thing is basicly that if the warmachines kill their points worth of units, or if they kill high importance unit needed to kill certain unit/units that are hard to be wiped out any other way, they have done theyr job. I guess lizards just need to get their points out from melee, to compensate

Terradons and rippers are good but too squishy to magic and shooting, if you get turn 1 after a vanguard you should be able to safely fly over their line and be ready for a turn 2 charge but if not, expect them to be shot out if the sky

This is quite a gamble in my opinion.. sure u can vanguard easily. 50% chance u get that first turn, otherwise ur dust, 50% chance to pass the leadership (8") test to be able to march over the enemy line, if failed, ur def toast, also the best case scenario is that u get to their machines on turn 2. maybe a better bet would be hide them with vanguard or normal moving, and then try to charge the machines.

 

[Rhodium]

This is quite a gamble in my opinion.. sure u can vanguard easily. 50% chance u get that first turn, otherwise ur dust, 50% chance to pass the leadership (8") test to be able to march over the enemy line, if failed, ur def toast, also the best case scenario is that u get to their machines on turn 2. maybe a better bet would be hide them with vanguard or normal moving, and then try to charge the machines.

Isn't warhammer a game of gambling?? A 4+ ward is a 50% chance and considered a good thing!


My experience isn't that,

If you get first turn you aren't march blocked so definitely make it over.

If you don't get first turn I find either:

You get charged (flee and regroup the benefit of fast cav) or people stand off, smaller units are very cautious of 3d3 auto hitting str4 rocks so not many people go and sit 8 inches away from you.

But there is a chance you get over their lines, so that is a small chance, therefore in total that is a greater 50% chance of making it over, if you have two units of flyers, you should get at least one across.

 

[rantapanda]

Isn't warhammer a game of gambling?? A 4+ ward is a 50% chance and considered a good thing!


My experience isn't that,

If you get first turn you aren't march blocked so definitely make it over.

If you don't get first turn I find either:

You get charged (flee and regroup the benefit of fast cav) or people stand off, smaller units are very cautious of 3d3 auto hitting str4 rocks so not many people go and sit 8 inches away from you.

But there is a chance you get over their lines, so that is a small chance, therefore in total that is a greater 50% chance of making it over, if you have two units of flyers, you should get at least one across.

i guess the game indeed is a gamble ; )
I also havent played many games either so for me this is mostly simulation too

but if u want to march closer than 8 inch of the enemy, you need to pass a leadershiptest which is stated in p.26 as the Enemy sighted! rule. if u fail u just move normally up to the front of the enemy. with terradonriders Ld5 thats fifty-fifty. indeed if u have two groups, 210points?!, you should statistically get the other one in. Im not sure what you mean with the "If you get first turn you aren't march blocked so definitely make it over" :f do you mean you dont need to take the Ld test?

Cos u cannot vanguard closer than 12 inch, you will need a marching movement first turn to get over the lines.

You indeed can flee and regroup if ur charged. but shooting sounds a sound option vs terradon riders. they feel quite squishy especially since theyll prob flee. also im not sure if u can drop the rocks in melee. It states u need to fly over a unit to drop the rocks. So you can even march over a unit and drop rocks, if u pass the ld test that is...

 

[Rhodium]

i guess the game indeed is a gamble ; )
I also havent played many games either so for me this is mostly simulation too

but if u want to march closer than 8 inch of the enemy, you need to pass a leadershiptest which is stated in p.26 as the Enemy sighted! rule. if u fail u just move normally up to the front of the enemy. with terradonriders Ld5 thats fifty-fifty. indeed if u have two groups, 210points?!, you should statistically get the other one in. Im not sure what you mean with the "If you get first turn you aren't march blocked so definitely make it over" :f do you mean you dont need to take the Ld test?

Cos u cannot vanguard closer than 12 inch, you will need a marching movement first turn to get over the lines.

You indeed can flee and regroup if ur charged. but shooting sounds a sound option vs terradon riders. they feel quite squishy especially since theyll prob flee. also im not sure if u can drop the rocks in melee. It states u need to fly over a unit to drop the rocks. So you can even march over a unit and drop rocks, if u pass the ld test that is...

Yeah you only need to take a march blocked leadership test if the enemy unit is within 8 inches of you, as you said, vanguard only allows you to move no closer than 12 inches, therefore if you get turn one, the enemy cannot be closer than 12 inches, thus you are not march blocked. It doesn't matter if you then get within 8 inches of the unit during the move, you don't need to test mid move, only at the start , once you start marching you are fine.

If you don't get turn one
If they charge, you flee, standard Terradon tactics, shooting isn't that great an option, usual BS3 troops, -1 skirmishers, -1 for either long range or moved, hitting on 6's, wounding in 4's then 5+ armour. That is okay but nothing too scary, more of a worry is magic missiles (a common thing amongst lizardmen units) they will destroy terradons

Correct you cannot drop rock in melee,
Yes if the unit is further than 8 inches away, you are not march blocked, just fly over them, drop rocks and move on

If they sit 8 inches away, try to pass your ld 5 test, if you pass march over, drop rocks, move on
If you fail, fly 8, touch the unit, drop rocks, fly back one inch, shooting javs at them, hopefully that has done some damage to the unit or that unit of terradons is probably toast,

I used to always run two units if terradons and regularly get one if not both into the back field. Lizards have just too many other things worth magicing off the board (read: sallies) for people to concentrate fire at terradons.
With the new book and the price increase, I have started to move towards 2+ AS skink chiefs on terradons to do the same job, they are much more survivable against BS shooting and magic missiles, and can quite easily kill warmachines. Artillery will destroy them but if they are shooting at a 120 point chief and not your Stegadon, that is a good thing

 

[Lizardmatt]

I must be the chief pimp, because I keep telling people the same thing.
84 points gives you a chief with a spear and 2+ armor on a terradon.

The downside is you don't skirmish, so you don't get the -1 to be shot; but that is offset by the 2+ armor instead of 5+. If you can get some cover, or force movement and range modifiers, you aren't likely to get picked off.

With one chief with a dragon helm, you might get lucky on a fireball/burning gaze.

-Matt