7th Ed. New 550 Point Army List

[conwar]

I am new to Lizardmen and Warhammer. I just started making a 550 point army list, if 550 is possible.
Do you think the hero is to maxed out? Any help would be appreciated.

Scar-Veteran
Hand Weapon
Light Armor
Cold-One
Burning Blade
Enchanted Shield
Venom of the Firefly Frog
Points: 155

Saurus Warriors
#16 (including Champion)
Shields
Spears
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Points: 222

Skinks
#12 (including Brave)
Javelins
Shields
Brave
Musician
Standard Bearer
Points: 82

Skink Skirmishers
#12 (including Brave)
Hand Weapon
Blowpipe
Brave
Points: 90

Total: 549

I love the fact my Scar-Veteran has a 0+ armor save.

 

[snowywlf]

First off, welcome! Always good to have more folks around.

Scar-Veteran
Hand Weapon
Light Armor
Cold-One
Burning Blade
Enchanted Shield
Venom of the Firefly Frog
Points: 155

The Venom of the Firefly Frog isnt going to work on your attacks because the Burning Blade of Chotec is magical. You also will not be able to use the +1 for Hand Weapon + Shield in close combat because the Burning Blade of Chotec is technically not a Hand Weapon (stupid rule in my opinion, but the Errata for Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook is very clear on this). You are unable to choose a mundane weapon if you take a magical weapon (if your intention was to choose between the Hand Weapon and Burning Blade depending on situations).

Someone else is going to have to confirm, but I dont believe the Enchanted Shield 5+ Armor Save is going to stack. If an Armor Save is cumulative with other Armor Saves, they are listed as being +1 to Armor Save. The Enchanted Shield gives a character with no Armor Save or an Armor Save of 6+ the ability to have a 5+ Armor Save. Since the Scar Vet already has a Scaley Skin of 5+, this causes a net gain of 0.

Saurus Warriors
#16 (including Champion)
Shields
Spears
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Points: 222

Unless you have a very specific goal in mind for the Champion (ie - You need him to accept Challenges to protect a Character in the unit), the points are almost always better spent on adding another Saurus Warrior. For 12 points to upgrade to a Champion, you can instead have another spear wielding Saurus Warrior. This nets you 2 more attacks instead of the 1 attack for Champion, but most important it gives +1 Unit Strength and +1 Wound to the unit (since you have another model).

Skinks
#12 (including Brave)
Javelins
Shields
Brave
Musician
Standard Bearer
Points: 82

Same thing with a Brave. 8 points is even more than a single Skink. You'd be better off adding another skink to the unit. Again the exception is if you are intending to run a Character in this unit and you need a Brave to eat the first Challenge. I'd really consider the value of your Musician and Standard Bearers in this unit. What is the intended purpose of the unit? If you are going to be flanking, then this *might* be worth it (although I personally wouldnt drop so many points on them. Skinks are only 5 points and each one of their upgrades costs *more* than the actual model). If you are using these as charge directors, then absolutely drop the Standard Bearer. Frankly, unless you have a very specific purpose for your ranked Skinks, I would limit them to a unit of 10 with no upgrades. That's only 50 points for an entire unit that is fast moving and not a skirmisher.

Skink Skirmishers
#12 (including Brave)
Hand Weapon
Blowpipe
Brave
Points: 90

Again I'd drop the Brave. Skink Skirmishers are relying on one thing and one thing only to get kills: Poisoned Attacks. Essentially, it doesnt matter if you need a 5+ to hit or a 6+ to hit, because in order to get Poison off you need a natural roll of 6. The difference a Brave's +1 BS will make is effectively 0 if you look at the math and account for Poison.

------------------

Ok, so there is the unit by unit rundown. Now on to the general stuff.

First off, dont be discouraged by my comments above. This is your first list and you've made the exact same first-time mistakes that we all did. We are trying to put together some FAQs for each unit type and possible some sample Army Lists specifically to help out folks like you that are just getting into Lizardmen and havent had the experience to see the ups and downs of each little rule and ability yet.

Second, Fantasy games are almost always played in multiples of 500 or occasionally 250. For example, the most common game sizes are 500, 1000, 2000 and 2250. You are welcome to play any size you want (of course! It's all about fun), but if your intention is to go to a gaming store and find a pickup game, I'd strongly recommend making lists in the above sizes. If you are playing with friends, just agree on a size before making your list and play whatever you want.

Third, feel free to ask any questions you like. We're a nice group. I also recommend you do some quick searches if you have a question, because there is an *awful* lot of information posted here by now.

Fourth, this is a personal thing, but I love seeing armies and battle reports. So take pictures! Let us see your rocking dinos!

Welcome again!

 

[Barotok]

Snow offers some solid advice, which I would agree with. I'll offer a little more in my comments in regards to your hero.

Small lists 1000pts or less, typically do much better with more basic troops. You've done will to include those in the list so far, but I'd venture that your scar veteran is carrying around too many points with him. He won't be strong enough to run around the board by himself (unless you swap some items out, and play very carefully), and keeping him in the unit of Sarus Warriors will make that unit be the one that every enemy army is going to go for (meaning that once it breaks and flees, your game is over). At 550 points you must have a character as a general, but I would consider dropping all the fancy nick-nacks in favor of some mundane basic equipment in order to give yourself a few more points to spend on basic troopers. Does this lower the combat prowress of your Scar Veteran? Most definitely, but you'll find that there are very few hero level characters in the warhammer world that will be able to compete, toe-to-toe with our Scar Vets (Warriors of Chaos, perhaps Vampire counts?). You'll find that even an unarmored scar vet can cut a blood swath through the enemy's rank and file troops.

May I suggest this build for your general at this point value?

Scar Veteran:
Light Armor
Shield
93pts

You expressed interest in keeping the save low, which this build accomplishes (1+). It also does drop the cold one (but having yoru general running around on a cold one with no support really means that he'll most likely get killed. You don't have anything in the army that can keep up with him). You also have 63 points with which to beef out another unit (thats 4 more sarus, and a skink), which I think that you'll find will work wonders at the lower points values.

As you get into higher points values, giving your characters all the nice shiny items becomes usefull. Bt at lower points values, more troops can do what an upgraded character can do, better.

Hope this helps and welcome to the site!

 

[conwar]

Thanks for the advise! I am using a program called army builder to create my army list, and it doesn't take some rules into account. :S Here is my new army list at 500, a more normal number. Now, Snow said (I think) a Saurus champion gets one attack, I thought he had 3. Am I wrong? Also the sad thing is, to replace my champion upgrade with a different Saurus I would have to buy a new saurus regiment, I only have 16 . Also, is the Kroxigor a little much. I love the model, but some common troops could be taken in its place.

Scar-Veteran
Hand Weapon
Shield
Light Armor
Points: 93

Saurus
#16
Spears
Shields
Standard Bearer
Drummer
Points: 210

Skinks
#12
Hand Weapon
Javelins
Shields
Points: 60

Skink Skirmishers
#12
Blowpipes
Hand Weapons
Points: 84

Kroxigor
#1
Great Weapon

Total: 502

 

[novatomato]

What snow was saying about the saurus champ is that he gets +1 attack over the normal saurus, however he costs 12 points, which is the same as a saurus with a spear so you keep the champ model as a normal saurus and he loses one attack but you gain another saurus with two attacks, that is a net gain of one attack. Don't worry about not having one or two models, most (in fact pretty much everyone) will be fine with you using something else to represent the extra model provided it is of similar base size. Or you could ask your local gameshop owner if you could borrow a few models for games in the store.
Most importantly, play games with your lists and find things that work well and continue to use them and change the things that don't work.

 

[snowywlf]

Now, Snow said (I think) a Saurus champion gets one attack, I thought he had 3. Am I wrong?

Well, I was actually speaking in terms of net attacks. In other words, a Champion does have 3 attacks, yes. But another Saurus Warrior model has 2 attacks. So lets lay them out side by side:

1 Champion for 24 pts:
3 Attacks, 1 Wound, 1 Unit Strength

2 Saurus Warrior for 24 pts:
4 Attacks, 2 Wound, 2 Unit Strength

Does that format explain a little better? Looking back at my previous post, the information is there, but I didnt make it very clear. Sorry!

Also the sad thing is, to replace my champion upgrade with a different Saurus I would have to buy a new saurus regiment, I only have 16 .

I've been there! For just starting out and with limited models, then absolutely fill in any point gaps with a Champion or extra little magic item. Until you get enough models, you simply work with what you have. I personally ended up purchasing 2 Battalions and I think it is a really good deal. The only thing you might not be using a lot are all the Cold One Riders.

Actually, I put together a little spreadsheet to analyze the costs. Here ya go:

Also, is the Kroxigor a little much. I love the model, but some common troops could be taken in its place.

Haha, now this is a question of much debate. So many arguments for and against. Let me refer you to this thread to see the pros and cons:

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/skinks-kroxigors.1585/

Oh yes, this small point game wont support it, but I'd recommend buying a Stegadon. They are extremely useful and wonderful models to work with. It's really a treat to put them together, clean them up and paint them. Actually, they are my favorite model to work with so far.

 

[conwar]

Thanks for all the help! This is a great site . I will be sure to post pics of my models when the are done!

P.S. Ya, now I understand the whole champion thing, not your fault, just took me a while to see what you meant.

 

[DonkeyHotep]

You guys posted some stuff that was wrong.

First of all.

conwar wrote:
Scar-Veteran
Hand Weapon
Light Armor
Cold-One
Burning Blade
Enchanted Shield
Venom of the Firefly Frog
Points: 155

The Venom of the Firefly Frog isnt going to work on your attacks because the Burning Blade of Chotec is magical. You also will not be able to use the +1 for Hand Weapon + Shield in close combat because the Burning Blade of Chotec is technically not a Hand Weapon (stupid rule in my opinion, but the Errata for Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook is very clear on this). You are unable to choose a mundane weapon if you take a magical weapon (if your intention was to choose between the Hand Weapon and Burning Blade depending on situations).

He CAN in fact get a 0+ armor save that way, and the parry bonus (I.E. hand weapon shield) is irrelevant in relation to the magic weapon because he's mounted, and can not claim that bonus anyway. Also, he didn't choose a mundane weapon, he just has a hand weapon, because every model is assumed to just have one. (unless they specifically say they don't)

Further:

May I suggest this build for your general at this point value?

Scar Veteran:
Light Armor
Shield
93pts

You expressed interest in keeping the save low, which this build accomplishes (1+).

This character in no way has a 1+ save. He goes to 5+ for scaly skin, 4+ for light armor, 3+ for shield, and 2+ for the parry bonus in melee. (he is still 3+ at range)

Even Further

Someone else is going to have to confirm, but I dont believe the Enchanted Shield 5+ Armor Save is going to stack. If an Armor Save is cumulative with other Armor Saves, they are listed as being +1 to Armor Save. The Enchanted Shield gives a character with no Armor Save or an Armor Save of 6+ the ability to have a 5+ Armor Save. Since the Scar Vet already has a Scaley Skin of 5+, this causes a net gain of 0.

Shields give you a 6+ armor save, scaly skin gives a 5+, they stack, all armor saves stack unless they say they don't, I also think the description of the ench. shield in the BRB says a 5+ save which stacks with others as normal. Spiffy elfin helmets and gromril pluses stack too. An old blood with light armor and the ench. shield and a cold one has a -1+ armor save.

Even Worserer

Unless you have a very specific goal in mind for the Champion (ie - You need him to accept Challenges to protect a Character in the unit), the points are almost always better spent on adding another Saurus Warrior. For 12 points to upgrade to a Champion, you can instead have another spear wielding Saurus Warrior. This nets you 2 more attacks instead of the 1 attack for Champion, but most important it gives +1 Unit Strength and +1 Wound to the unit (since you have another model).

This isn't 40K yo, 10 guys and 20 guys still make the same number of attacks if they are 5 guys wide, and only models that are touching have any attacks, so there's little point in making your saurus wider then 6 models wide (as small bases 5 wide will be as wide as 4 saurus, leaving two extra on diagonals) Adding another guy really only gives you +1 US, not +2 attacks, unless he's in a line 8 men wide and fighting skirmishers or another absurdly wide unit. The +1 attack let's you concentrate more beat down at the front.

 

[snowywlf]

Ok, here we go.

You guys posted some stuff that was wrong.

First of all.

conwar wrote:
Scar-Veteran
Hand Weapon
Light Armor
Cold-One
Burning Blade
Enchanted Shield
Venom of the Firefly Frog
Points: 155

The Venom of the Firefly Frog isnt going to work on your attacks because the Burning Blade of Chotec is magical. You also will not be able to use the +1 for Hand Weapon + Shield in close combat because the Burning Blade of Chotec is technically not a Hand Weapon (stupid rule in my opinion, but the Errata for Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook is very clear on this). You are unable to choose a mundane weapon if you take a magical weapon (if your intention was to choose between the Hand Weapon and Burning Blade depending on situations).

He CAN in fact get a 0+ armor save that way, and the parry bonus (I.E. hand weapon shield) is irrelevant in relation to the magic weapon because he's mounted, and can not claim that bonus anyway. Also, he didn't choose a mundane weapon, he just has a hand weapon, because every model is assumed to just have one. (unless they specifically say they don't)

I never refuted his 0+ Armor Save.

I stated he could not choose a mundane weapon, specifically meaning in combat. This is clear in the line "(if your intention was to choose between the Hand Weapon and Burning Blade depending on situations)". If you take a magic weapon, you forfeit the ability to use your mundane weapon (Hand Weapon) unless the magic weapon is destroyed. See Warhammer Fantasy Rulebook page 121. And yes, it is irrelevant due to being mounted. He was concerned about putting too many points in his character, and if he wanted to shave off points it is obviously best to provide as many options and information as possible.

Even Further

Someone else is going to have to confirm, but I dont believe the Enchanted Shield 5+ Armor Save is going to stack. If an Armor Save is cumulative with other Armor Saves, they are listed as being +1 to Armor Save. The Enchanted Shield gives a character with no Armor Save or an Armor Save of 6+ the ability to have a 5+ Armor Save. Since the Scar Vet already has a Scaley Skin of 5+, this causes a net gain of 0.

Shields give you a 6+ armor save, scaly skin gives a 5+, they stack, all armor saves stack unless they say they don't, I also think the description of the ench. shield in the BRB says a 5+ save which stacks with others as normal. Spiffy elfin helmets and gromril pluses stack too. An old blood with light armor and the ench. shield and a cold one has a -1+ armor save.

You are correct. I looked this up and the Enchanted Shield provides a +2 Armor Save bonus effectively.

Unless you have a very specific goal in mind for the Champion (ie - You need him to accept Challenges to protect a Character in the unit), the points are almost always better spent on adding another Saurus Warrior. For 12 points to upgrade to a Champion, you can instead have another spear wielding Saurus Warrior. This nets you 2 more attacks instead of the 1 attack for Champion, but most important it gives +1 Unit Strength and +1 Wound to the unit (since you have another model).

This isn't 40K yo, 10 guys and 20 guys still make the same number of attacks if they are 5 guys wide, and only models that are touching have any attacks, so there's little point in making your saurus wider then 6 models wide (as small bases 5 wide will be as wide as 4 saurus, leaving two extra on diagonals) Adding another guy really only gives you +1 US, not +2 attacks, unless he's in a line 8 men wide and fighting skirmishers or another absurdly wide unit. The +1 attack let's you concentrate more beat down at the front.

It was never stated that you are getting an extra 2 attacks per turn. It was stated, and EXTREMELY clearly, that the point cost of a Champion is the same as another Saurus Warrior model, which provides a larger bonus to the unit overall. +1 Attack is less than a 5% boost to the unit's attack. This is far inferior to having a dead Saurus Warrior replaced with a live one, granting 2 Attacks and possibly recovering the rank bonus. In addition, in a small game like this, most units are 10 models. Having that extra model is going to give you Combat Resolution for outnumbering.

All in all, the only thing you were correct about is the Enchanted Shield bonus, which I asked for confirmation on as I wasn't sure. The rest is a matter of opinion and playstyle, which the original poster was asking for. Stating that our opinions are *wrong* is uncalled for and not appreciated.

 

[Barotok]

Pardon my math skill, Donkey is correct. I neglected to notice that my fingers hit the wrong number key when typing the save.

You also make a good argument for having a champion in the unit as well. I won't attempt to debate this in an army list thread considering it would more appropriate in a tactics thread. The point is, argument can be made for having or not having a champion in a list.

For myself, I model all my units with a champion. If I choose to not use the champion for a battle, I will simply inform my opponent or swap him with another rank and file trooper. Conwar, I know that at this point in your collection you mentioned that you don't have enough models. That will change eventually (I'm sure). Most opponents are fine with you not using a champion despite having the model on the table, as long as you remember that and you let them know ahead of time.

Happy collecting.

 

[Lycanthrope]

It is good to see more people joining the disciples of the Old Ones! Welcome!
I like the main format of your list as well, a unit of saurus augmented by skinks ready to rained poisoned death upon your enemies! We shall get along well I believe...

Now, excuse me if I am further derailing this topic, but it says in the rulebook that the weapon you choose to have in a unit has to be on the majority of the models in the unit, while a few may take other weapons for "variety and lulz" as it says in the book. As such, it would be legal to model a champion with a sword and some shoulderpads and still field him as a rank and file, no?

 

[Barotok]

If I choose to not use the champion for a battle, I will simply inform my opponent or swap him with another rank and file trooper.

Ideally, you model your units to reflect what equipment that the actually are carrying. This includes your standard bearer, musician and champion. My previous post stated exactly what you are suggesting, use the champion as a rank and file trooper.

The reason that you see so many unit champions modeled with different weapons or look from the rest of the unit is primarily because it distinguishes them from the rest of the unit. This allows you to pick them out of the unit (visually) because they have a different look. It is, after all, important where the champion is standing when it comes to CC, just like any character.