8th Ed. Neutrel no more.

[Boo]

Lizardmen are definately good, they follow the will of the Old ones, no ifs no buts. Those that suggest otherwise or shy away from the Truth because they are a bit screamish have strayed from the Plan and must be purged for the greater good.

 

[Conifer]

Lizardmen are definately good, they follow the will of the Old ones, no ifs no buts. Those that suggest otherwise or shy away from the Truth because they are a bit screamish have strayed from the Plan and must be purged for the greater good.

You basically cantradict yourself here.

Lizardmen are Order because the BRB says so. It has nothing to do with goodness or evilness. And the topic isn't meant to discuss that, if I got it correctly.

So back on topic: I don't really agree with them beeing aligned with the Order. Particularly not while the Tomb Kings stayed Neutral. Tomb Kings stay in their tombs, killed anywhone who gets near them. They don't benefit anyone nor align with anyone else except themselves.

The lizardmen might align with someone else but only if it benefits their own (or the Old One's) goals. Wich is basically the same as the Tomb Kings. That doesn't mean they would erradicate the whole Empire if they found the planets aligned to do so

Yes, they are more prone to align with the Order forces, but that is basically because they share a common enemy.

In my opinion both the Lizardmen and (even more so) the Wood Elves should have been of Neutral Alignment.

 

[HoverBoy]

Except that the Old Ones whos plans they're supposed to be following are the ultimate example of order.
As i said already, the separation isn't Good/Evil, it's Order/Destruction, there is really nothing stopping the emotionally neutrall lizards from being srvant (in their case) of order.

 

[n810]

The Lizardmen race was bio-engineered to combat chaos.
They are very unemotional because emotions feed the chaos gods.

 

[Conifer]

The point is the Old Ones do not serve the Order, they serve themselves and their ultimate goal.

Chaos stands between them, they crush Chaos. Empire stands instead, Empire gets crushed instead.

There is no distinction for a Lizardmen between good, evil, Order or Desctruction. Hence, they should be Neutral.

 

[HoverBoy]

There is a distinction for lizardmen between order and destruction, they serve the order of the old ones.
The old ones OTOH are clearly stated in the army book (page 7) to have been "beings of order and light".
If your goal is to serve beings of order, then you are a servant of order, therefore belonging in the forces of order.
Now that's an orderly statement

 

[Conifer]

That's like stating that the Tau are good because they serve the Greater Good.


Their Greater Good sometimes implies the anihilation of whole inhabited worlds, so...
Just like the Plan of the Old Ones sometimes requires the anihilation of whole Empire settlements, for example.

I also disagree that the Lizardmen have a distinction of Order and Destruction. To me they work like a robot, they do what they are programmed to do by the Will of the Old Ones and by their readings of astrology.

 

[HoverBoy]

Actually while astrology has an impact on how the skink priests run the lizardmen when they're in charge, the general actions of the race are still acts according to the way the slaan interpret the plaques.
Also order isn't good or evil, its fundamentally separate from such concepts, so while the annihilation of a planet may be evil it can still be done in the name of order.

 

[guitarhero]

Lizardmen are good to the core. they served the Old ones, the forces of good. they battled chaos the first time they erupted onto the world. Why would they ever be neutral?

 

[Conifer]

@Hoverboy: So you basically agree with me then


@guitarhero: Why are the Old Ones good? Because they battled Chaos? Thats like saying the Nazis were good because they took Germany out of bankrupcy.


My point is the Old Ones serve their own hidden purpose, right?
It's not good, it's not evil, it's not the Order's purpose and it's not the Destructions purpose, it's their own. Am I right?

Doesn't that mean they are pretty much Neutral then?

Mind this is just my opinion. I really fail to see why some armies have the alignment they define in the Rulebook. I disagree with some of them even more than with the Lizardmen beeing Order

 

[HoverBoy]

Good!=Order.
Once you realise that you can understand why lizardmen belong in order.

My point is the Old Ones serve their own hidden purpose, right?
It's not good, it's not evil, it's not the Order's purpose and it's not the Destructions purpose, it's their own. Am I right?

You're almost right but mostly wrong, as i said the Old ones where/are creatures of Order, whatever their own purpoces are they cannot really be against order.

 

[Conifer]

Good!=Order.
Once you realise that you can understand why lizardmen belong in order.

What I can't understand is why do you think they do good in the first place. Just because they fight Chaos and Skaven often?

My point is the Old Ones serve their own hidden purpose, right?
It's not good, it's not evil, it's not the Order's purpose and it's not the Destructions purpose, it's their own. Am I right?

You're almost right but mostly wrong, as i said the Old ones where/are creatures of Order, whatever their own purpoces are they cannot really be against order.

That brings me back to my train of thought again: why are the old ones creatures of Order? Because they fight Chaos? Beeing neutral doesn't mean they are against the Order, it just means they side with no one.



The Rulebook states that the forces of Order are builders, not destroyers. So far so good. It also states that the forces of Order often have bickeries amongst themselves blabla, wich is fine. Then they state they are the most common forces to band up against a common enemy.

Thats were I disagree. The Lizardmen won't fight Chaos or anyone else if it doesn't really affects them directly. They don't interfere unless it has something to do (in the near or in the far future, kinda like in the Albion campaing) with their own plans.

That's what I see as "Neutral".

 

[HoverBoy]

That brings me back to my train of thought again: why are the old ones creatures of Order?

Because the ramy book says so on page 7:

The Old Ones where beings of order and life...

The whole sentence on the fourth row of the very first paragraph.

 

[BEEGfrog]

I voted don't care because the will of the old ones is what matters, whether that is perceived as good or evil does not matter to me...

 

[Forsak3n_Oldblood]

i may be taking a shot in the dark here or might get slightly off topic, but try not to scold be too much...i'll attempt to make a point.

with the forces of destruction gone, would there be a force of order?
without evil would there be good?

ask yourself those questions then think of this...
...Lizardmen were there before "the forces of destruction", without destruction - there would be no order.
i view LM as a neutral force controlling the balance of the two, and once destruction is gone there will just be the old ones plan....and the Lizardmen of course. hence they should remain neutral, as they were in the beginning.

hope that made sense

 

[Conifer]

That brings me back to my train of thought again: why are the old ones creatures of Order?

Because the ramy book says so on page 7:

The Old Ones where beings of order and life...

The whole sentence on the fourth row of the very first paragraph.

I see, you still didn't get the difference between The Order and simply order.

The Order is kind of an alliance of races as stated on the Rulebook. A kind of organization.

Order is a form of the word orderliness, quoting Wikipedia: "Orderliness is associated with other qualities such as cleanliness and diligence - and the desire for order and symmetry, and is generally considered to be a desirable quality."

You can't take anything so literally, because by your example, they shouldn't be killing anyone if they are "beings of life"

Can you spot the difference and see where the Neutral alignment comes into play?

 

[Forsak3n_Oldblood]

wikipedia can never be quoted...in fact, i just went and changed that article.

weren't the old ones there before chaos?

 

[HoverBoy]

The Order is kind of an alliance of races as stated on the Rulebook. A kind of organization.

What the hell are you talking about, i don't see any "The Order" in the BRB, it says that the forces of order just have simillar broad goals, which by all accounts is true for the LM as one of their goals is to banish chaos and bring peace for all, even if they have to beat the rest of the "good guys" into compliance once chaos has been dealt with. Heck in our own army book they tell us how the LM helped the HE enact the great warding, and also assisted Sigmar during his fight with chaos, simply because it was in the interest of the old one's plan.
Not to mention the cool story when LM appear to help the HE whoop some DE to protect a point in the geomantic web, if i was an elf i would definetly trus them after that.

 

[Conifer]

...one of their goals is to banish chaos and bring peace for all, even if they have to beat the rest of the "good guys" into compliance once chaos has been dealt with.

That's exactly what I take for being Neutral.

My book also states that Lord Mazdamundi specifically paused his contemplation of the Cosmos to earthquake to smithereens a Human settlement in Lustria.



The Tomb Kings only want to protect their treasures and holy places intact, shouldn't they be order too then?

Even the Ogres, they of all races have the most noble goal, to eat.



Please have in mind that I'm just sounding out my opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise!
I also really like your avatar. Made me go back and install Fallout 2 a while ago

 

[HoverBoy]

My book also states that Lord Mazdamundi specifically paused his contemplation of the Cosmos to earthquake to smithereens a Human settlement in Lustria.

You need to understand that the concept of order for the lizardmen is a bit different from everyone else's. For them anything that isn't in compleete accordance with the Old one's plans is viewed as beinf influenced by chaos, and for all we know it might as well be, so they will first deal with the major infractions and then attempt to redeem the lesser offenders if possible. So as thoguh they may seem neutral it is just a side effect of them being virtually emotionless, they are cold blooded after all, but from their position of cold intellect they are in fact more logical and thus the ultimate servants of order, which makes sense since they where literally created for the task.