7th Ed. Need help with HE List

[Dalkarius]

Ok, first of all, I'm Dalkarius and I've been kind of trigger happy with my posting since I recently discovered this site and love seeing all of these Lizardmen players. I've been playing for a few years now and sit on roughly a 3K-4K army though I always play 2250. I used to play at a Hobby shop called Jasco Games, but it was shut down due to money and GW in Grapevine is a venture I rarely make. (And sorry if I posted this in the wrong forum...wasn't very sure where to put it)

As for this list, my closest friend is a strong HE player that is still laughing heartily at the new HE army book. He used to be a push-over, all I had to do was throw some Kroxs behind a horde of skinks accompied by sallies and it was game over. Now, however, the field is crawling with dragon princes and RBT that rip my men apart. Though the worst thing is the unstoppable Star Dragon that he recently brought crashing onto the field.

His list is as follows,

x1 Prince with a great weapon (Str 6), Armor of Caledor (2+ save), Vambraces of defense (4+ Ward save and rerolls failed armor saves), and the Talisman of Loec (rerolls misses to hit, wound, and any succesful saves of the person he attacks, one use only, does one wound to himself with no saves allowed). Though the Prince isn't the problem...

Star Dragon (Mount for Prince) Flyer, Terror, Str 7, WS 7, T 6, 7 W, and 6 Attacks! 622 points

x2 Scroll Caddy lvl 2 mages one wielding the Silverwand (knows extra spell) 185 for silverwand, 175 for other

x2 10 archers 110 each

x10 Dragon Princes with FC 350

x10 Dragon Princes with FC and war banner 370

x8 Silver Helms w/ shields and command 224

Then to top it off, x2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

I've NO clue how to beat this army. I've managed to keep VP results at a draw, but he always manages to gather more points. I easily tear apart his shooting with two units of scout skinks and terris occasional, even the cav are managable, but the Dragon has proven impossible to kill.

The Star Dragon...I honestly cannot find ANYTHING to kill the terrible beasty, it's just far too powerful. Moves 20" and can reface so that it's impossible to get the charge unless a critical point happens, even then the rider strikes first with 4 str 6 attacks followed up by 6 str 7. Impossible I say, against the dragons 3+ armor save and my opponent using the Talisman of Loec against the first potential threat to his monster.

HELP!

 

[Skeletmen]

Wow... nasty list for sure... 20 dragon princes, heavy magic and a star dragon...

I once fought a star dragon on a tournament with my O&G. on the first turn I killed the prince on the dragon with a fanatic but the dragon kept rampaging and eat 45 orcs in 4 turns. The only thing I can think of that can hurt a dragon is a cannon or a few bolt throwers.

So you can opt to take a DOW cannon or two in your army. or a huge unit of krox can tear a hole in his dragon. Str 7 against To 6, then you can hit him on a 3+. Or you can ask your friend to change his list so you can both have fun when playing a game of warhammer.

well I hope you find my tips usefully and good luck with your next battle.

 

[Spiney Norman]

Heavens above, thats maybe the sickest HE list I have ever seen...

On the up side he is very low on number, although thats not hugely comforting given the units he is packing. The only thing that isn't scary is the silver helms, almost anything in our list bar a unit of skinks will be able to deal with them effectively.

Take your skink priests (2 lvl 2s should work ok, one with Diadem and one with 2 scrolls). Also 2 stegs if you have them (if not one will probably do) and use the reroll spells from the heavens lore to help your bolt throwers hit the dragon, if you can take a few wounds off it before you hit combat things will be much, much easier.

My personal preference would be to take the Carnosaur Lord, if you can charge him into the Stardragon you'll have a chance of killing the dragon (use the blade of Tzunki), but I can understand if you want to go for the Slann with giant immovable unit of temple guard to bog the beasty down.

Then lots of skinks and Kroxigor working together to hunt the elven cavalry.

 

[Ninjaskink]

First thing you should point out to your friend is that the great weapon he's wielding is now only strength 5. He's mounted, so he loses the one point of strength due to lack of mobility (BRB p. 56).

Second, I don't know exactly how much of a scaly skin save that dragon has (I'm guessing 3+) but to combat that toughness 6... skink poison. You have a worthwhile chance of hitting the thing since it's a large target, so put a scout unit to work on trying to whittle down a wound or two from it. They'll die, but that's their job. Also, if he likes charging these little buggers, try using them to misdirect the big thing and open up his flanks for krox, steg or carnosaur countercharges. If he usually just flies right over them, poison the heck out of him.

If you want to go with the suggestion of the double steg bow attacks, I'd recommend the priest with the cloak of feathers. Put him close to both of these guys and use the portent or second sign spells to aid the bow shots. If the elves dispel them, then you're opening up your other priest (if you take him) to start unleashing a more powerful spell afterwards like Uranon's Thunder Bolt. The dragon shouldn't be subject to the 4+ ward of the prince, so shoot it up and hope to watch it fall.

 

[Dalkarius]

Thank you all very much for the suggestions. I've actually tried most of those ideas, the main problem is the dragon causes terror and Scouts with low leadership are doomed, and dragon fire is Str 4 and causes Panic if it does ONE wound, which spells annihilation for skinks. I tried a Slann general leading an actually powerful army and managed to make my Saurus capable at topping even the DP and SM if they showed. Problem is my friend will never engage his Dragon unless on his terms, and the only things that could possibly catch it are JSoD or terris. His favorite move is to fly behind me and aim so that I get a nice dose of Dragon fire. And by DOW did you mean Dogs of War? I've no idea where to find DOW rules and points, but if there's a cannon I'll buy it without a second thought.

And a note about Stegadons, although powerful on the charge and standing a decent chance of shooting a dragon, they get mauled in combat by the Dragon as if made out of butter. I have found that Sallies can easily massacre anything except the Dragon in his list, even the DP's, but that still doesn't solve my dragon issue. Perhaps I should try using Chameleons and scouts to immediately dissable shooting and then force him to attack me?

Thank you for your advice and I hope for more. (Btw, any suggestions on what lore I should use? I think Slann is best chance, even though the Dragon will remain out of my reach more then likely)

 

[Dalkarius]

AH-HAH! It finally occured to a few moments ago while I was reading through some magic lores, Pit of Shades would ruin the dragon! The Star Drsgon has a low Initiative of 2, so there's a great chance he'd be eaten up and die instantly! I wouldn't have to deal with any Attacks, toughness, or strength. And I'm not sure if his leader would take a seperate test or go plummeting down with his mount, so someone please enlighten me. Also, besides a 2nd generation Slann with PoD and PoT, is there any other way to gurantee it of Shades? Also, does someone roll for Slann magic by declaring how many spells from eaach lore? Or do we roll one at a time so my secret weapon will succeed? So, ignoring the dragon, any suggestions on what magic I should take to deal with the DP's?

Due to all of this, I'll be taking a lone 2nd Generation with those Plaques and Diadem of power I suppose. I'm definately wanting to go magic heavy, since there's only two little scroll caddies to try and stop me. So probably two Priests one of which with the Cloak so I can manuever and avoid the shooting/dragon. I'm thinking salllies to blast those cav or the mages to hell and back, then skinks to fill up my core choices and wipe out the RBT/archers. So by two turn I can easily wipe out his shooting and hopefully magic, leaving his Dragon to finally come crashing down!

Any suggestions or tactics/advise are indeed welcome! (Btw, would Pit of Shades destroy the RBT's automatically?)

 

[Ninjaskink]

Spell Suggestions:

Lore of Beasts: The Beast Cowers. No range, just requires line of sight. Takes the dragon out of the fight for one turn, and keeps it from moving in his next movement phase.

Lore of Shadows: Shades of Death. Gives normal troops Fear and fear causers get Terror. If the previous spell manages to go off, finish the combo with this one. Cast it on your Krox and they'll be able to charge the dragon with no problems.

Lore of Heavens: Forked Lightning/Uranon's Thunder Bolt. Again, lacking in a range restriction outside of line of sight, the magic missile can reach out and touch the dragon anywhere on the board. Uranon's Bolt also goes through that scaly skin save and provided you can deal with the higher toughness, it can take a wound or two off of it.

Lore of Light: Dazzling Brightness. If somehow you can manage to get a unit to charge the thing and you're in range, cast this one on it and watch your troops hack the creature to bits.

Lore of Death: Steal Soul. Automatically take a wound and apply it to your Slann. The problem here is range, but if it gets close enough, it's a quick and easy way to take a wound off of it.

Lore of Death: Wind of Death. 2d6 Str 4 magic missile. It's about the best shot you have with a magic missile. Range is an issue, but it's a good filler.

 

[Daeghrefn]

With the slann you just need to declare which lore you want to do, roll on it until you are happy, then declare another lore and repeat. You don't have to declare how many spells per lore. The entire process is too random for me, though...
My money is on the Carnosaur. I have yet to meet the dragon that it can't devour.

If you are having problems with the dragon more than anything else, and it's just because his movement prevents you getting the charge, I might suggest manipulating the terrain more to your advantage. Remember that flyers cannot use thier flying movement in forests, for example... You'll still have LOS with large targets in normal woods, but no charge for him.

 

[Dalkarius]

Thank you all very much, me and my friend are about to clash and see what happens. And the spells suggestions are wonderful!

@Daeghrefn I can gurantee the Carnosaur will lose to the Star Dragon, but you'll also be able to inflict some damage. I unforcanately had suffered one wound from some freaking ninja horse and the Prince activated his Talisman to insure a few wounds on the Carnosaur and the Dragon cleaned it up, which left me with a worthless Oldblood who auto-broke due to being outnumbered by Terror and was run-down.

 

[Daeghrefn]

We suffer from a rather odd lack of HE players in my area, so I don't have a lot of experience with that particular thing. I will look into it further... just saying before, don't bet everything on Pit of Shades - there have been plenty of times my slann just didn't roll properly on spell selection Always have a backup plan!

 

[Spiney Norman]

AH-HAH! It finally occured to a few moments ago while I was reading through some magic lores, Pit of Shades would ruin the dragon! The Star Drsgon has a low Initiative of 2, so there's a great chance he'd be eaten up and die instantly! I wouldn't have to deal with any Attacks, toughness, or strength. And I'm not sure if his leader would take a seperate test or go plummeting down with his mount, so someone please enlighten me. Also, besides a 2nd generation Slann with PoD and PoT, is there any other way to gurantee it of Shades? Also, does someone roll for Slann magic by declaring how many spells from eaach lore? Or do we roll one at a time so my secret weapon will succeed? So, ignoring the dragon, any suggestions on what magic I should take to deal with the DP's?

I don't think Shades will work on the dragon unless you manage to kill the elf first. I'm pretty sure a character on a monstrous mount takes all char tests using his stats rather than his mounts (could be wrong though).

Due to all of this, I'll be taking a lone 2nd Generation with those Plaques and Diadem of power I suppose. I'm definately wanting to go magic heavy, since there's only two little scroll caddies to try and stop me. So probably two Priests one of which with the Cloak so I can manuever and avoid the shooting/dragon. I'm thinking salllies to blast those cav or the mages to hell and back, then skinks to fill up my core choices and wipe out the RBT/archers. So by two turn I can easily wipe out his shooting and hopefully magic, leaving his Dragon to finally come crashing down!

Any suggestions or tactics/advise are indeed welcome! (Btw, would Pit of Shades destroy the RBT's automatically?)

I'd go with the immovable TG anvil if I were you, theres very little chance of breaking that unit, then just ready your Steg/Kroxigor hammers for when the DPs/Star Dragon hit it

 

[Daeghrefn]

This came up recently at my local store... I'm pretty sure that when targetting a character on a monstrous mount, the character is assumed to be completely covered by the template if his mount is. Additionally, both the character AND the mount have to test, each using their own stat. I'm only 95% on that though, so if someone could confirm that would be great

 

[Spiney Norman]

no, just found it in the monster section, if the base is partly covered you roll partials for monster and rider separately.

I guess that means each has to take their own I test...