7th Ed. Need help beating cheesy wood elf player

[Falcon]

Hey everyone, I just started playing warhammer, my roommate plays a Wood Elf army and it looked like fun so I started to play Lizardmen & really enjoy them! I ended up buying everything for the Lizardmen army just so i could play with everything. Here is my problem....

Here's close to what he runs (I don't know the very specifics)
Alter Noble (war gear bow that lets him hit on 2's and no armor saves?)
Treeman x2
10 dryads x 3
5 glade riders
7 war dancers with war dancer noble
6 wild riders
spellsinger
spellweaver

His tacit is speed, bait, and charge. He rushes the dryads right up, treemen move up behind them avoiding my heroes. (yes he runs his treeman away from my old blood) Glade riders move up and shoot and wait to be charged to flee and he rams me with a treeman or dryads. war dancers have the spellweaver i think which he transports his war dancers to a forest behind my line and rapes my priests or hunts down my slann. (he will hide these units in trees until he can line himself for a good charge) wild riders gos after priests or just runs in to clean up units with a treeman or war dancers.


And he sits back with this freaking alter noble and hits my hero/lords from across map with some stupid bow that hits on 2's and has no armor saves. and yes if i get close to him he either runs away to charge with another unit or dances around my lord/hero so hes out of my arc and i cant charge him.

any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Falcon]

My next battle with him today I was thinking of this tactic

Slann (425)
EOG - lvl 2 priest (400)
lvl 2 priest (135)
3x 3 kroxs (495) (or remove 1 unit for scar-vet)
cold ones (230)
razordon (75)
3x 10 skink (240)
that's about 2000 points

I was thinking I could stay near my deployment and just blast at him with magic while I move my units slightly to avoid combat with dryads, shots from noble/glade riders. I hope he just gets sick of me blasting him with magic and tries to hunt the priests down. I make a skink wall, let him charge me and i smack him with kroxs.

best thing i can come up with =(

 

[Caneghem]

Make sure you fully read and understand all of the rules in the basic rule book as well as both army books (along with their respective FAQs). Often times cheesy players will interpret unclear rules automatically in their own favor, and wind up with a serious advantage. It helps to know when they are wrong, and embarrass them by showing your superior knowledge. This will help sour the victory for them, as well as every past victory they have earned using the wrong interpretation of the rules.

The alter noble is easily neutralized by a unit of terradons, just keep them screened by skink skirmishers. Make sure that he knows he cannot march and then shoot with the alter noble.

Also playing against different opponents will expand your knowledge of the rules faster than anything else, as they will point things out that your friend has missed in his understanding of the rules. Look for the nearest games workshop dealer, you're bound to find some like-minded players. Post battle-reports and rules questions on this site and the knowledgeable players here will help pick out things that should have happened differently based on rules or better strategy.

Above all, don't quit. Cheesy players can and should be beaten. After you beat him once, refuse to give him an immediate rematch until he changes his attitude. The game was meant to be fun, not as a way for an insecure fool to stroke his ego.

 

[Falcon]

Make sure you fully read and understand all of the rules in the basic rule book as well as both army books (along with their respective FAQs).

Thanks for the advice Caneghem, I started reading his book this morning as well as reading the entire rule book. cause i am pretty sure hes accidentally misreading some rules.

 

[Caneghem]

After reading your list, I can see where you'd need some help. First, you have WAY too many kroxigors. Against the woodelves, you ought to have your Slann protected in a group of Temple Guard.

You have a single razordon.. they aren't terribly effective even in groups of 3. A single salamander would do more damage.

Your skinks are 80 points per unit, they should be 70. If you want javelins, just rank up some skinks and get them for 50 points per unit. No army should be without ranked skinks anyway.

Do you own any Terradons? They are invaluable against woodelves, and their "drop rocks" ability will annihilate his pesky alter noble.

You also want to specify the equipment on each of your characters so that we can suggest things to remove. Your Slann is 425?? His base cost is 275...

Give a little more detail as to what models you have and don't have. You said you bought everything, but if you want a list from scratch we could do that based on what models you own.

 

[novatomato]

One thing you could do, is turn his 'teleport forest' spell against him. Take the lore of life and when he hides his wardancers in a forest, cast Master of the Wood. It does D6 strength 5 hits to a unit in the woods.
The Howler Wind can also be VERY useful as no shooting with strength 4 or less will affect the target unit. This spell will allow you to determine who he shoots at and when.
I also second Caneghem about salamanders, these are very useful against a Tree List. The flaming wounds against the treemen and the dryads are doubled unless they save them, and with a -3 to armour save, and I'm pretty sure neither has a ward save, you should have no trouble in dropping these monsters.
I would also suggest giving the jaguar charm to a scar-vet and have him literally fly at units/characters that are going to be problematic, he will very likely hold the unit up for two or three turns or simply wipe the unit out.

 

[Falcon]

That was just a general idea


my slann usually has 3 DotA (cast from lore, extra dice, immune to reg attacks) I normally go with fire lore, cupped hands of the old ones puts him at 420

EOG lvl 2 - dispell scroll 415
priest lvl 2 - Rod of the storms 125
3x krox 495
sally hunt 75
3x 10 skinks 240
think thats 2k even

heres what i own
2 slanns
4 priests
3-4 chiefs
2 scar-vets
2 salamanders
2 razordons
9 kroxs
12 cold ones with hero on cold one
20 temple guard?
40+ warriors
2 old stegs + 1 new one
Carnosaur
100+ skink

im waiting for the store i go to for terradons to come in

 

[Gannon]

Wood Elfs are not that hard to beat.
The hitting on 2+ no armor save alter noble is possible, but it's a lord choice. Meaning he makes a character to shoot 3 arrows on your cold ones. Which you than need to protect from his lord.

Running blocks versus woodelfs is kind off useless. They will avoid them and attack the weaker units you have. But your slann needs protecting, A lone slann is suicide vs a wood elf. So protect your slann with TG and those should be your only saurus unit. Skinks are your friends versus wood elfs. Nothing more annoys them than a bunch of chameleons killing his wardancers by poison shots. They only have a 6+ ward save.

Running 2 Treeman is a cheese on its own. So counter it by running a second Stegadon. There is nothing in his army that can bring down your stegadon except his own treeman.
With a Slann and a lvl2 priest on EoTG you should have enough Magic Defence to stop his magic from going off. Diadem of Power rocks, as Heaven spells are not that effective except forked lighting on some distanced units. The no-armor save version is useless as wood elfs don't have armor.
Lore of Fire should do the trick as his dryds and treeman are flamable.

Getting into combat is difficult versus a wood elf player. As he baits you and charges you when you did.
So? Destroy his bait units. Use skinks to destroy his fast cav. Don't be afraid to go in the woods, you anti-magic will protect them. As combat units I do suggest saurus cav, stegadons and your TG.
No Kroxigors as their low armor-high cost is a bad thing versus woodelfs, as you will never get them into combat in the first place.

And if there never was any combat not a bad thing. As the only thing he would have killed were probably skinks. And you killed his much more expensive units with them or by Magic, you should win by points.
A unit of 3 Terradons are great for hunting his lord. But be carefull as they are easily shot down if they get too close to his other units.

That's about it.

Now that I see what you own, you can easily make a list with some of the advice I gave you.
Now the Ethereal is not needed for a slann in TG, better spend the points on some other things. Like give the slann 1 Dispell scroll. Remove the DS from the priest on EoTG and either give that guy the Diadem or give him the War Drums so he doesn't get march blocked.
EoTG does S5 on forest spirits by its BOOOM.

Maybe convert some skinks into chameleons if you can, those guys r still worth gold vs woodelfs with their -2 to hit.

 

[Caneghem]

I should clear up my suggestion about salamanders a little bit.

The flaming attacks of salamanders are virtually pointless against wood elves. Firstly, and I see this misconception repeated everywhere, DRYADS ARE NOT FLAMMABLE. I see this every time wood elves are discussed, but flammable is pointless against a 1 wound model. In addition, I just checked the Wood Elf book, and they are not even listed as flammable (probably to prevent the confusion that still happens anyway). Dryads will have their armor cancelled, but will retain their 5+ ward for being tree spirits (as the salamanders' breath is not a magic attack).

Treemen are flammable, but your salamander has some significant hurdles in his path. First, I'm pretty sure the Treeman's base is too large to be covered completely by the flame template, so you're looking at a 4+ to hit him at best. Next, you need to roll a 6 to wound. Then, he still gets a 6+ armor save and a 5+ ward save. So while the prospect of doing a double wound with a salamander seems inviting, you are looking at... (1/2)(1/6)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.6% Yes, a 4.6% chance of a partial hit turning into a successful wound (x2). In other words, do not waste valuable shooting by ever firing at the Treeman with Salamanders.

Also, all tree spirits are immune to psychology... so the free panic check from salamander casualties will not be useful against the bulk of his army... in fact only his glade riders are not immune to psychology. Remember that this means only his glade riders can ever flee as a charge reaction.

All that taken into account, at least your salamander hits with a template. While neither razordons nor salamanders are great against wood elves, salamanders should rack up more hits because the razordons will be constantly contending with -1 to hit penalties for skirmished units. The salamander will be good for blasting any of his skirmishers he likes to hide in a forest and send your way. Wardancers barbecue up nice, as do wild riders (if you can hit them from the flank).

 

[Revered_Guardian]

first of all, you should take a scar-vet with the blade of chotec for double wounds vs tree kin, and ALWAYS take lore of fire with your slaan like you've been doing.

2nd, terradons and cold one riders and stegadons are a must! there speed will help you weather incoming fire much better!

 

[lupercal]

i was just looking at the wood elves book and the treemen only have an Initative of 2 they are very vulnerable to pit of shades and if you break them you break his army also against that list ranked troops are great his units all skirmish but are close combat orientated that means no rank bonus for him just wounds and saurus with spears will break them most of the time and temple guard will simply dominate them

with that in mind i would take a unit involving

slann in a unit of temple guard
EotG
skink priest on foot

18 saurus X 2
10 skink skirmishers X 2
mabye a stegadon with warspear for the other treeeman
or sallie's

 

[Falcon]

First off reading his army book & more of the rule book helped me. Still working on the rest of the rule book and i will look over his book 1 more time. (fleeing with immune to phy, Regen against fire, charges, rolling his ward save vs magic/magic weapons)

We played today and hes what i ran...
Slann - 3 DotA (lore, extra die on casts, immune to reg attacks) Fire lore, dispel scroll
EOG lvl 2 - Rod of Storms
Scar-Vet - Jaguar, Blade of Chotec
Skink Chief on Steg with war spear
6 Cold One Cav
Krox's
3x 10 skrim skinks
Salamander

The Slann raped in the magic phase every turn, even with his 5 dispel dice and 4 dispel scrolls. The EOG never got close so he just reduced fire casting cost. The Priest was ripping through troops with #4 missile. Scar-Vet locked a treeman down before he could charge, then had steg and cold ones charge. 2 units of dryads and his noble charged that fight. i got a 12 on my impact hits and caused a few wounds. scar-vet could not get a hit (he was ward saving the blade of chotec until i called his out on it) Krox's never seen battle. Salamander missed all his hits besides 1 on a treeman on turn 4. the 3 units of skinks did an amazing job and keeping him on the run or locking units into combat.

At turn 5 i used everything i had to do 2 wounds on the noble before he charged my Slann (i would of used temple guard by i haven't put them together, just bought another box of 10. One thing that saved me big time was no forest in my deployment zone, which keep the wardances out of my butt. at the end of turn 6 he had

2 glade riders
3 wild riders
3 war dancers
2 casters
1 unit of 6 dryad
1 treeman with 5 wounds left

i had
EOG untouched
Steg with 1 wound left
Slann untouched
Krox's

came out to a draw in points from what he said (he counted)

anymore improvements/tactics greatly appreciated!

 

[Grifthin]

Well - Getting 12 Impacts hits would ruin anyone's day

I noticed you still shot the treeman with the sallies - Didn't you have any other targets available ?
Have you considered taking a unit of mixed Kroxi's + Skinks ? If nothing else they help deliver the Kroxi's to the battle reasonably intact since you Randomize hits between the two different types of models, and skinks are dirt cheap with poison shooting.

 

[Gannon]

May I ask you why you use 25 points on the rod of storms ?
Wardrums is 30pts but makes sure your engine doesn't get marchblocked so you can get full use of Burning alignment which will do lots more damage than a D6 S4 no armor save One time use Item which should be dispelled or used a scroll against.

Otherwise it seems like you've been doing better, I'm sure in some games when you know the rules somewhat better you'll get a win. As your opponent sounds like someone I know. Using everything in their own advantage. It helps when you do everything yourself, counting Combat Resolution, measuring if his charges make it ect... and eventually count the points and check the book if its a draw or a win.

 

[Revered_Guardian]

ummmm why can't he take wardsaves vs magic weapons?

 

[snowywlf]

ummmm why can't he take wardsaves vs magic weapons?

Forest Spirits have a 5+ Ward Save. However, this save cannot be used against magical attacks (spells, magic weapons etc.).

And well done Falcon!

 

[Celticfire]

i would like to say, do not take fire lore! he has two units in his army that are flammable, if that is what you are going for it is not worth it. also nothing i that lore has the no armor save rule i have defended shadow lore for a while in this site and will do it again.

steed of shadows-charge your Scar-vet into that alter noble ad watch him cry
creeping death-good for taking out tree spirts, the no armor save is useful against his scaly skin save, and he can't take that ward save of his
crown of taidron-each lore has a bad spell and this is the one for shadow
shades of death-good for making some units imune to terror (everyone who hates having sarus run from a bad Ld test raise their hand now), but not the most useful spell in this list
Unseen lurker- the spell that makes blocks of infantry even worth considering vs a wood elf. the ability to get that charge off is invaluable
pit of shades- i got this off on my friends treeman fist turn of the game, it was a thing of beauty

i would not recomend the sally against this tree heavy army, better to have more skirmishers that can contest board edge, and screen the sarus blocks.

 

[snowywlf]

i would like to say, do not take fire lore!
...
pit of shades- i got this off on my friends treeman fist turn of the game, it was a thing of beauty

First, I actually dont like the Lore of Fire. Not versatile and I find the killing power to not be dramatically greater than other lores. Against wood elves it isnt terrible however. Wood Elves have crap for Armor Saves, which is where Fire gets to shine.

Second, he didnt dispel Pit of Shades? That's the spell that calls Dispel Scrolls like it was magnetic. Awesome for you that he made such a massive mistake. And Pit of Shades is not good against Wood Elves in general. The *only* unit that has a low Initiative is Treeman (I2) and Treeman Ancient (I2). Granted, these are expensive and very powerful creatures, but everything else in the army has really good Initiative.

I personally would rank the Lores against Wood Elves in the following order:
1. Lore of Beasts
2. Lore of Shadow
3. Lore of Life
4. Lore of Death
5. Lore of Fire
6. Lore of Light
7. Lore of Heavens
8. Lore of Metal

Beasts and Shadow are close, but I have to give the advantage to Beasts.

First, the lower casting costs means you can get more of them off per Magic phase. Everything is a 9+ or lower.

Second, the Beast Cowers is going to be an *excellent* control spell for you. 2 units of calvary in the enemy army to negate. And arent the Treemen monsters? If so, you can choose to negate them as well, providing 4 targets for this great spell.

Third, the Oxen Stands is a great little spell if you want to take one of those Treemen and run them around the board. Just set up some charges against your skinks, choose to flee and then if they fail their Rally you just cast and they are good for another feint.

Fourth, you have killing power with the two Magic Missiles. One of them is great against rank and file units (Hunter's Spear) and they both can be channeled through your Skink Priest.

Fifth and perhaps most mighty - the glory which is The Wolf Hunts. This is going to let you get the charge in on those annoying wood elves that like to just run and run. And the casting cost is a measly 9+.

 

[Celticfire]

And Pit of Shades is not good against Wood Elves in general.

it is only good against against Treeman like you said, but that is such a point sink for them that it vastly cripples their army, and also the psycological effect on the player is huge, my friend promptly decided to charge his wild riders into my TG w/ slann

Second, he didnt dispel Pit of Shades? That's the spell that calls Dispel Scrolls like it was magnetic. Awesome for you that he made such a massive mistake.

my friend is an ardent believer in more dispell dice is better than a dispel scroll, for which i want to hit him over the head. besides it cast irresistably, though i will agree with alot of what you you said about beasts.

just i find creeping death to be a better spell than the hunters spear, just because of the rank limitations; there are almost no ranked-up units in a wood elf army.

with the slann i have never had a problem with the high casting value do to the fact that he can through around so many dice. to each his own though

 

[snowywlf]

Ya, I was hard pressed to choose between Shadow and Beasts against Wood Elves. I actually had the list with a tie for first between those two and switched it twice before settling on Beasts before Shadow. Even now I am really torn between the two. If you can manage a Pit of Shades on a Treeman, that is indeed a great point and morale victory for you.

Anyone know if Treemen are classed as monsters? I cant seem to find a list of their base size (50mm would make them monsters) and nothing in their book description indicates one way or another.