AoS My Koatl's Claw 2k list explained, critique and comments welcome!

[KristalliTapsa]

Hello fellow lizard fans! I'm new to tabletop wargaming (except DnD) but I picked up Seraphon this past March. One thing led to another and now I have almost 4000 points of Seraphon. I'm trying to perfect my list for 3.0 so I’d like some feedback.


I mostly play Koatl’s Claw because I like the lore aspect of Saurus warbands and a Saurus general commanding their troops. Here is the best list I have come up with so far:


Allegiance: Seraphon

- Constellation: Koatl's Claw

- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence

- Triumphs: Inspired


Leaders

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215) in Warlord

- General

- War Spear

- Command Trait: Dominant Predator

- Artefact: Eviscerating Blade

Skink Starpriest (130) in Warlord

- Spell: Hand of Glory

Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150) in Warlord

Engine of the Gods (265) in Command Entourage

- Artefact: Cloak of Feathers

Slann Starmaster (265) in Command Entourage

- Artefact: Itxi Grubs

- Spell: Stellar Tempest

Skink Priest (80) in Command Entourage

- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal


Battleline

10 x Saurus Knights (220) in Hunters of the Heartlands

- Blades

- Reinforced x 1

5 x Saurus Knights (110) in Hunters of the Heartlands

- Lances

5 x Saurus Guard (115) in Warlord


Units

3 x Kroxigor (150) in Hunters of the Heartlands

- 1x Moonhammers


Behemoths

Bastiladon with Ark of Sotek (185)


Endless Spells & Invocations

Purple Sun of Shyish (70)

The Burning Head (20)


Core Battalions

Warlord

Command Entourage - Magnificent


Additional Enhancements

Artefact

Artefact


Total: 1975 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 1 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 107


Picture of sample deployment in Tabletop Simulator:





https://imgur.com/a/zZS11dM


Because positioning of Astrolith Bearer, Slann, EOTG, Scar-Vet and Starpriest are important, and pieces like the Astrolith Bearer needs to be wholly within 12” of multiple units to fully utilize their potential (10 knights, Slann, EOTG, Starpriest):



So let's go over the idea of this list.


The main fighting force is the stack of 10 Saurus Knights, Starpriest and Astrolith Bearer. A stack of 10 Knights is suboptimal as a damage unit, but this is intended as more of a holding down objectives battleline unit, partly to soak damage with Astrolith Bearer, while at the same time dealing good damage with mortals through the Starpriest. A 10 stack of Knights is also easier to Rally, which has proved useful almost every game I have played with this list.


Slann, Guard, EOTG and Priest are the center death star stack. EOTG is surprisingly tanky if positioned correctly (-1 to hit from Cloak, +1 save from Crest, Priest and All-out Defence, 6+ Ward from Astrolith bearer). The Engine rolls are random, but with this list you can get good use from the damage, heal and the summoning that are most often the result.


5 Knights and Scar-Veteran form a counter charging duo behind the larger Knight stack. At the same time, the Scar-Vet is in prime position to command any Saurus unit with Dominant Predator, which works surprisingly well with the universal command abilities. Rally, Redeploy, All-Out Attack and Defence, Inspiring Presence are all good, and the extra command points you get from 3.0 rules compared to 2.0 and Slann maximize Dominant Predator.


Kroxigor and the Ark are a good duo to clean up battleline units. The Arks defence vs low rend targets provides some screening for the Kroxigor, who in turn can bring pain.


All in all this list is pretty well armed in my opinion to almost any situation. The main selling points are good staying power from various heals and good saves through abilities and commands, huge magical dominance through Slann and the casting re-rolls and overall flexibility with command points, spells, monster rampages and EOTG.


Weaknesses include low body counts if you don't get lucky with Warrior summoning, low mobility and potential weakness to shooting (I don't get to play against many in my gaming group)


In case you want to take part in the discussion, below is a list of my entire collection. Please do feel free to tell your ideas with any unit though, as it might benefit another lizard brother <3


Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)

2x Saurus Oldblood (120)/Saurus Sunblood (125)

2x Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215)/Saurus Oldblood on Carnosaur (270)

Saurus Scar-Veteran on Cold One (110)

Skink Oracle on Troglodon (270)

4x Skink Priest (80)/Skink Starpriest (130)

Skink Starseer (145)

Slann Starmaster (265)

2x Stegadon (265)/Stegadon with Skink Chief (305)/Engine of the Gods (265)

5 x Saurus Guard (115)

20 x Saurus Knights (440)

30 x Saurus Warriors (315)

3 x Kroxigor (150)

3x Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)/Bastiladon with Ark of Sotek (185)


Endless spells from Malign Sorcery

 

[Kakalou1]

According to me your list lack of rend and MW - Dépend on your adversary of course but against some army with good save you will have some difficulty to make dammage
Carno and Kroxigors have just -1 rend on 1 attack
EotG and your Slann can send some mortal but seem light to me
There is also the serpent staff but with cohérency rules only 7 knights Can hit which is kind of a waste

A bastilladon in TL with serpent staff will be much more letal for example

 

[2Hands]

Fairly new player here, so keep that in mind, don't write my words in stone... I don't know what I do!!

I would almost never take 10 Knights in one unit, 5 should be the go to, 15 seems ridiculous but can be reasoned with... 10 feels just bad. So you should cut that unit of 10 knights into two units of 5. Also maybe you want to make somehting else your general, to get out of the must take Command Trait of KC. Other than that I feel like you're fielding some units that just aren't that great. That's ofcourse fine if you want to field them because they're cool.

For what I see in your collection you can field an amazing TL list witch is quite strong, funnily enough you already field all the support a Skinkchief on Stegadon for example wants.

If you want to stay with KC I would field something like this:

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Koatl's Claw
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Saurus Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur (215) in Warlord
- War Spear
- Artefact: Eviscerating Blade
Skink Starpriest (130) in Warlord
- Spell: Hand of Glory
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150) in Warlord
Engine of the Gods (265) in Command Entourage
- General
- Command Trait: Nimble
- Artefact: Cloak of Feathers
Slann Starmaster (265) in Command Entourage
- Artefact: Itxi Grubs
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Sunblood (125) in Command Entourage

Battleline
5 x Saurus Knights (110) in Hunters of the Heartlands
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110) in Hunters of the Heartlands
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110) in Hunters of the Heartlands
- Lances
5 x Saurus Knights (110) in Warlord
- Lances
5 x Saurus Guard (115) in Warlord

Behemoths
Bastiladon with Solar Engine (235)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
Warlord
Command Entourage - Magnificent
Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108

With the amount of units you probally never get priority after set up, but it should be easy to score your grand strategy.

 

[KristalliTapsa]

According to me your list lack of rend and MW - Dépend on your adversary of course but against some army with good save you will have some difficulty to make dammage
Carno and Kroxigors have just -1 rend on 1 attack
EotG and your Slann can send some mortal but seem light to me
There is also the serpent staff but with cohérency rules only 7 knights Can hit which is kind of a waste

A bastilladon in TL with serpent staff will be much more letal for example

You have a point with the lack of rend and mortals too to some point (though I do think there are mortals in Slann, EOTG, Purple Sun etc.)

But isn't 5 Knights with Serpents Staff more mortals than Bastiladon, even if you doubles fired it? According to my math 5 Knights get on average about 20 wound rolls which is aboiut 3 mortals, while double firing the Bastiladon nets you 9 wound rolls, averaging about 1.5 mortals?

 

[KristalliTapsa]

Fairly new player here, so keep that in mind, don't write my words in stone... I don't know what I do!!

I would almost never take 10 Knights in one unit, 5 should be the go to, 15 seems ridiculous but can be reasoned with... 10 feels just bad. So you should cut that unit of 10 knights into two units of 5.

This might honestly be a really simple improvement. I like to test out different tactics but I do think that my tests with 10 Knights are beginning to show negative results.

A stack of 10 Knights is suboptimal as a damage unit, but this is intended as more of a holding down objectives battleline unit, partly to soak damage with Astrolith Bearer, while at the same time dealing good damage with mortals through the Starpriest. A 10 stack of Knights is also easier to Rally, which has proved useful almost every game I have played with this list.

My initial idea was to be able to buff 1 big unit more efficently and to Rally it more easily. A single activation in the combat phase is also a beneft, because you take less damage before being able to retaliate. Rallying is quite situational though, and buffing big unit doesn't really help if only half of your big unit actually gets the benefit from All-Out Attack etc. Combat phase activation remains a small benefit of a large unit, but not maybe enough to really make the experiment worth it.

Fairly new player here, so keep that in mind, don't write my words in stone... I don't know what I do!!
Also maybe you want to make somehting else your general, to get out of the must take Command Trait of KC.

Scar-Vet is in prime position to command any Saurus unit with Dominant Predator, which works surprisingly well with the universal command abilities. Rally, Redeploy, All-Out Attack and Defence, Inspiring Presence are all good, and the extra command points you get from 3.0 rules compared to 2.0 and Slann maximize Dominant Predator.

This is an experiment I'm still quite fond of and think people underestimate. Granted, I haven't played any tournaments and don't know if I ever will, but my results have been promising. Especially Redeploying Knights can be a really good use of Dominant Predator, as you can still retain uses of Command Points for combat. Still, I'll keep your comment in mind in the future and continue to test Dominant Predator.

Other than that I feel like you're fielding some units that just aren't that great. That's ofcourse fine if you want to field them because they're cool.

I won't lie, I like this list partly because it's quite functional in my mind while still retaining variety. The only repetition is 15 Knights. Being able to use all the fancy lizards is so enjoyable (just have to find a good use for a Troglodon in another list still).

I take the not-so-great units you are referring to are the Kroxigors and the Ark. I think this pairing is another quite succesful experiment of mine, beacause that 335 points can go pretty far. So far I have used these units more aggressively and charged midfield, but i might test more of a defensive role for the duo. For this purpose a Solar Engine is probably better, but also expensive (and also old and boring, I want to theory craft and test new stuff!)

Other that that, I find your choice of Emerald Lifeswarm interesting. What was your idea? I feel Lifeswarm is most effective with a horde of Saurus Warriors, as even rolling a 1 on that D3 brings models back. Without Warriors, Lifeswarm might do nothing if any monsters or heroes close by aren't injured, or if you try to heal Knights and roll a 1. Am I missing something, whats your idea with Lifeswarm.

Also, picking the EOTG as the general is interesting. Nimble is a good trait, but I dont know if I'd take it as my first choice after Dominant Predator, because EOTG can get so many +1 Saves from Armoured Crest, Star-Stone Staff and others. I lean more towards a Slann general with Vast Intellect or Arcane Might, but I haven't really yet given it much thought.

Many thanks for your reply, appreciate any comments, and I will definately use that list you made at somepoint

 

[Tyranitar]

I'm on board for trying the ark basti, it's pretty cheap now and can tie up a lot of different units in combat. It's not going to do much damage but that's not really what it's there for. I think Krox are great honestly, they were decent before and only went up 10 points, plus the 2" reach is huge now. They function pretty well independently which is rare in our book, but it's not hard to get a skink near them. I would use some if the models weren't so horrendously bad. I do agree that the sunblood is prob worth trying in KC, and I don't really like the skink priest in the list. I'm also not a huge fan of dominant predator on paper but I haven't tried it yet on the table. I just think we generate enough cp now with the extra base ones we get in addition to our slann, starpriests, etc and can't spam them anymore so I don't see the value, but I could be wrong

 

[Lizerd]

Overall, a core of knights + scar veteran + skink starpriest is solid, but we could make it a bit better. First off, cut the engine as it does nothing of real benefit for what it costs in a saurus list. Another thing to consider is to bulk up on more bodies, cutting the basti i also feel is a must as you can fit in more knights.

If you want to keep the kroxigor, it would be best to take a unit of skinks, they're both relatively cheap and fast meaning they can tarpit and with kroxi they can deal real damage.Other than that, shifting the general to the scar vet with dominant predator is a solid idea as more cp is always good, even with the nerfs offered. Being able to spew out 3-4 commands and getting refunded 50% of the time is decent on any platform. Another thing to consider is to give the skink priest curse, this way you can get a serious amount of mortals with just about any unit and is especially good on koatl's claw knights

 

[2Hands]

Other that that, I find your choice of Emerald Lifeswarm interesting. What was your idea? I feel Lifeswarm is most effective with a horde of Saurus Warriors, as even rolling a 1 on that D3 brings models back. Without Warriors, Lifeswarm might do nothing if any monsters or heroes close by aren't injured, or if you try to heal Knights and roll a 1

I put the Emerald Lifeswarm in for your EotG + Slann center strategy. If you want to put more MW out I suggest Suffocating Gravetide and if you make your Slann General or really just for how good they are Chronomantic Cogs could be a choice to.

picking the EOTG as the general is interesting. Nimble is a good trait, but I dont know if I'd take it as my first choice after Dominant Predator, because EOTG can get so many +1 Saves from Armoured Crest, Star-Stone Staff and others.

Most things you can use Armoured Crest against will come with rend, and since I cut your Priest for a Sunblood, I thought it would be a good idea. It's about making your EotG a real Tank with potential for +3 to saves, negating virtually almost any rend. At this point MW become the only good answer and then you got the Lifeswarm to catch back up.

 

[KristalliTapsa]

I'm on board for trying the ark basti, it's pretty cheap now and can tie up a lot of different units in combat. It's not going to do much damage but that's not really what it's there for. I think Krox are great honestly, they were decent before and only went up 10 points, plus the 2" reach is huge now. They function pretty well independently which is rare in our book, but it's not hard to get a skink near them. I would use some if the models weren't so horrendously bad.

Nice to hear that I'm not alone with my thought about the KroxArk™ combo. I agree the Ark is more to tie opponents down and that big base it's got helps with that. Not to mention the 3" range on the Ark and 2" on the tail. Just yesterday I had a game where I was tieing down some Chaos Marauders and half a unit of Chaos Warriors from my Kroxigor, while till being able to effectively attack the Warriors because of the big range despite my weird positioning. The fact that KroxArk™ is almost completely independent is great too, but you still have to be war of not going to far away from a hero, because All-Out Defence is still great on these lizards if they get stuck too deep.

And fortunately, I have some 3D printed Kroxigors that are pretty great

https://imgur.com/a/dRoDqLS

I do agree that the sunblood is prob worth trying in KC, and I don't really like the skink priest in the list. I'm also not a huge fan of dominant predator on paper but I haven't tried it yet on the table. I just think we generate enough cp now with the extra base ones we get in addition to our slann, starpriests, etc and can't spam them anymore so I don't see the value, but I could be wrong

A Sunblood would be great I agree, and I missed that part of 2Hands list (sorry 'bout that). Skink Priest is there to purely buff EOTG and the Ark on the off chance it's in range. Healing from from the prayer is also a pretty nice. Also, the 80 points is the cheapest option to fill the need for Command Entourage for those sweet Seraphon Artefacts.

Dominant Predator being redundant because it overkills Command Point generation is interesting and atlest partly true. Though I would like to pose the angle that being able to generate Command Points from many sources decreases the likelyhood of bad luck, for example if the Slann fails to generate any. Just my thoughts, will have to get more playing experience to figure out the nuances of this question.

Another interesting fact about Dominant Predator is that when you generate Command Points through Heroic Leadership (the 4+ Heroic Action), the point you get is only for the duration of the round, but if you use it with Dominant Predator, you can potentially turn it into a normal Command Point. This is potentially more important in more Command Point starved lists, but and interesting observation still.

Thank you for your insights!

 

[KristalliTapsa]

Overall, a core of knights + scar veteran + skink starpriest is solid, but we could make it a bit better. First off, cut the engine as it does nothing of real benefit for what it costs in a saurus list. Another thing to consider is to bulk up on more bodies, cutting the basti i also feel is a must as you can fit in more knights.

I agree the EOTG doesn't combo with Saurus or Koatl's Claw in pretty much anyway, but it's not a bad unit still. And because the Slann is so great and EOTG comboing with that, I feel EOTG can be an ok addition to almost any Seraphon list. Probably not the most optimal, but it does bring some variety and flexibility even though it depends on luck.

Lack of bodies is definately a problem, but the Ark is not the thing I would take off. The Ark only counts as 5 models where as for example 10 Warriors is of course 10, but the 1+ save means that the Ark has much more staying power, quikcly out-damaging a damaged unit of under 10 Warriors. Again, these are just my thoughts on the matter.

If you want to keep the kroxigor, it would be best to take a unit of skinks, they're both relatively cheap and fast meaning they can tarpit and with kroxi they can deal real damage.

Other that me not having any Skinks, compared to a Bastiladon they die much faster, so they probably outperform the KroxArk™ in the short term, but fall off much quicker. I would be open to trying them though, because as I said, I don't own any and haven't tested them out.

Other than that, shifting the general to the scar vet with dominant predator is a solid idea as more cp is always good, even with the nerfs offered. Being able to spew out 3-4 commands and getting refunded 50% of the time is decent on any platform

Yes, my thoughts excatly. The combat phase CP spam is dead, but there are so many more phases you can use that CP on. Against a shooting army, you can use All-Out Defence a total of 3 times in a single round (in your combat phase, in the enemys shooting phase and the enemys combat phase). Thats 1 Kroaks worth of Command Points! Add the occasional Rally, Redeploy, Inspiring Presence to some Saurus Warriors and pretty fast your Dominant Predator has the worth of 2-3 Kroaks.

Another thing to consider is to give the skink priest curse, this way you can get a serious amount of mortals with just about any unit and is especially good on koatl's claw knights

Wait, WHAT, how did I miss this. Okay, so 80 points of Skink Priest gives you 3+ Star-Stone Staff to EOTG or Ark, Herald of the Old Ones to EOTG AND a sickening buff to you Knights, mortal wounding on 6's on hits AND wounds (when comboed with Starpriest). According to my math, thats 6 mortals wounds on a 5 stack of Knights. Sweet Sotek. I do see problems with the range, but this is SO GOOD I have to try it. Just a free improvement without sacrificing anything essential in my mind.

Lustria truly is an enlightened continent

 

[KristalliTapsa]

I put the Emerald Lifeswarm in for your EotG + Slann center strategy.

Hmm and it's not bad on the Carno either, who's pretty close usually to that EOTG. It's still a bit situational because you have to have taken damage but not died on those 2 big units, but not impossible. And proloning those units is BIG. The Purple Sun has been great, because you can always cast it on turn 1 and keep doing work regardless of opponent or situation, but I'll keep this in mind.

If you want to put more MW out I suggest Suffocating Gravetide and if you make your Slann General or really just for how good they are Chronomantic Cogs could be a choice to.

Gravetide is big and hard to use, since you can friendly fire, and Stellar Tempest is a good hordebreaker already. Cogs and Slann is not that great a combo, because buffing a Slann from 3 to 4 casts is not very important. I feel 3 casts is plenty. I have run Cogs in a 1500 game with 2 Starpriests and there it does work, giving a nice double cast to both of them.

Most things you can use Armoured Crest against will come with rend, and since I cut your Priest for a Sunblood, I thought it would be a good idea. It's about making your EotG a real Tank with potential for +3 to saves, negating virtually almost any rend. At this point MW become the only good answer and then you got the Lifeswarm to catch back up.

True, you cut out the Priest so it makes sense. The Lifeswarm with an unkillable EOTG is also a great combo.

Im beginning to appreciate you list even more thanks to these insights