Monthly Movie Club Joker 2019

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Great write up @Scalenex . I never really thought of it that way, but I think you are correct. Maybe the success of Joker will incentivize studios to produce smaller films that take more chances.

-It's got to be woke to sell the script in Hollywood but it cannot be too woke, it might trigger a backlash.

This is the sad reality that is ruining Hollywood in my eyes. At least it ends up saving me money. Plus I derive great enjoyment from watching woke films crash and burn (I'm currently enjoying sifting through the financial wreckage of Ter-man-hater Dark Fate).

-It's got to appeal to an international audience. That means Europe and China.

China is the biggest issue here. They have strict rules that must be obeyed before the government even allows a movie to be screened there. It's nice to see Joker give them the middle finger and make a billion dollars anyways.

-It's got to have a well known and well liked actor or actress somewhere or you need to use a strong marketing machine to boost the profile of a relatively unknown actor or actress.

I admit that I'm more likely to watch a movie with actors/actresses that I already know and like. Although on the flip side, I will boycott movies where I despise the actor/actress/director (i.e. Brie Larson).

-It's got to have something to appeal to kids, but not too Jar-Jar so it doesn't bother adults.

Even if this sucks, it does make sense. Cast a wide net and you increase your chances of catching more fish. Taken further, an R rated film automatically cuts away a large percentage of the population who cannot watch the movie.

P.S. excellent use of Jar Jar as an example!

-The plot cannot be too complicated

Mostly, but there are exceptions (i.e. Inception).

 

[Scalenex]

Mostly, but there are exceptions (i.e. Inception).

Inception is a very exceptional movie. There is an unwritten code in Hollywood that if a major director does everything the producers ask him to do for a big budget movie and then produces a commercial success, the producers will let him do a passion project movie with minimum producer meddling.

Inception was Christopher Nolan's passion project, and it happened to be commercially successful. Because of this, the producers and bigwigs loosened the reins and gave Nolan more freedom to create The Dark Knight with minimum meddling. Then it became a huge success. Because of this Nolan has the most valuable thing there is in Hollywood. A blank check to do whatever he wants. It is my belief that Nolan did The Dark Knight in a half-assed manner, but he's such a genius that half of Nolan's ass is worth two or three ordinary director's full asses.

M. Knight Shamaylan had a blank check, but he wore out his credit by creating a succession of subpar movies.

 

[Scalenex]

So the Internet is full of various and widely different interpretations of Joker 2019.

There is a good reason for this, it is shown that Arthur Flech sometimes has trouble telling reality from fantasy. That means any fan theory is potentially valid because you can hand wave any contradictory evidence in the movie as "that part didn't happen!"

Based on this and the many theories for what Joker was about makes me think that this movie is lightning in a bottle. If there is a sequel to this movie, that will almost ruin the first movie because you close off the myriad of plausible metaplots.

Spoiler: Assorted Theories

Spoiler: The entire movie was Arthur's Hallucination

One theory is that Arthur Flech is not the Joker. He was mentally abused as a boy who happened to have read some Batman comics, so he created an elaborate dark fantasy where he is the Joker. Most/all of the things he did in the movie were his hallucinations in a mental hospital.

Support
-The behavior of Gothamites doesn't make a lot of sense.
-Thomas and Martha Wayne's actions really didn't make sense given that they walked into a dark alley away from their support staff during a riot.
-If Arthur Flech really is the Joker, given the age difference between him and young Bruce Wayne, Batman is basically beating an old man. Ergo, he's not the Joker.
-The Joker doesn't have Batman's money or muscles. His threat is his intellect. Arthur Flech is not an idiot, but he's not very smart either. He would not make a very threatening Joker.

Against
-Arthur Flech thought he might be Thomas Wayne's illegitmate son but than that was disproven. If Arthur Flech was creating a dark fantasy for himself, he would be Bruce Wayne's half brother.
-Gotham City is a unique character. It's people do not behave like real people would. Also by comic book logic, age differences between characters are often handwaved away.

Spoiler: Bruce Wayne and Arthur Flech ARE brothers

Support
-While there is documentation to show Arthur Flech was adopted, there was also a photo to his mom with a quasi romantic note from Thomas Wayne. Thomas had the money and medical connections to forge the documents. He might have drugged the mom to push her to insanity. He might have even been the abusive boyfriend who beat Arthur Flech.
-The name Arthur suggests the legendary Arthur Pendragon. Arthur Pendragon was the illegitmate son of a king swept under the rug.

Against
-Arthur doesn't really look like Thomas or Bruce.
-It's understandable if Thomas Wayne is less moral and good than Bruce Wayne believes but this requires Thomas Wayne to be a true monster. Maybe an eight year old Bruce wouldn't be able to see it, but Alfred would know. That throws Batman's story arc off. Maybe Alfred initially decides not to tell Bruce the truth, but if grief for the loss of his saintly father is driving young Bruce to become a costumed vigilante, the responsble thing for Alfred to do is to try to deflect him from that path.

Spoiler: Arthur Flech is the Joker, duh

Support
-It fits the general narrative of Gotham City. Gotham City creates an anima for good and evil.
-It's not that different from Batman (1989) where the Joker is ultimately responsible for the deaths of Thomas and Martha Wayne.
-It's plausible that Joker could languish in the asylum for a while, become largely forgotten. Then once the Arkham staff let their guard and it just so happens that Gotham starts sighting a costumed vigilante dressed like a bat, that he takes that as his cue to leave.

Against
-This is the only version of the Joker I have ever seen where he didn't have his skin bleached or disfigured.
-Thomas and Martha Wayne's death was a little weird. It wasn't a random surprise murder like we usually see with Batman stories. There was so much rioting and whatnot before their death that their actions make no sense.
-The age difference between Bruce Wayne and Arthur Flech is pretty extreme.
-Bruce Wayne has at least ten years before he becomes Batman, probably longer. If the Joker spends ten to fifteen years committing random murders and heinous stunts, the police, a vigilante, a mobster, someone is just just going to shoot him.

 

[Scalenex]

Videos like this is why Critical Drinker is the (amateur) film critic that I trust above all else. I liked Spiderman Far From Home more than he did, but other than that we seem to like and dislike the same things for the same reasons. Except for whiskey. I don't care for whiskey. I'm more about beer and tequila...and moderation.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Videos like this is why Critical Drinker is the (amateur) film critic that I trust above all else.

He is very good. A great review for a great movie.

 

[Killer Angel]

Videos like this is why Critical Drinker is the (amateur) film critic that I trust above all else.

I truly enjoy Critical Drinker.
He is responsible for so much "wasted" time in front of my pc...

 

[Scalenex]

Okay time to stop googling memes and browsing Youtube and hit the road for my Thanksgiving trip.