7th Ed. Models I want to paint= crappy on the field

[Skrox]

The enormously awesome stegadon's aside I have to say that the models I most want to paint tend to be the ones that will be the least useful in a real game.

1) Kroxigor- as a 3 man unit they are cool, but as two krox in a 16 man skink cohort they would look awesome. They just have little usefulness. Seems like their fear causing would not overcome their breaking and running when confronted by medium sized units of night goblins.

2) Razordons- look cooler than salamanders, but most people seem to agree salamanders are better. Well crap.

3) TikTaq'to- Looks awesome and you can paint a terradon without having to fork out the cash for three of them at a time. But his points are crazy expensive. I have tried to figure out a skink chief on terradon setup that makes sense but it just never really works out better than the alternatives. You need your hero slots for stegadon's or scar-vets. Plus by the time he is upgraded to the point of being cool you have spent more points than a unit of 3 terradons, which are better than the one character anyway.

4) Skink Cohorts- Look way better than skirmishers, work far worse.

5) Saurus without spears- Don't get me wrong I like the unit with spears that I painted, but more than one on the board would look far worse than a second one with the interesting array of weapons available in their box. But taking them with spears they can chose to use their hand weapons anyway, so it doesn't make sense not to spend the relatively low cost to upgrade them.

6) Command groups- They are frequently some of the best looking models, and break up the monotony quite nicely. But unless you are fielding a big unit you don't want the opponent to be able to capture a bunch of VP by taking your standard bearers.

 

[strewart]

Yep, then you have to prioritise about game effectiveness vs the models that you enjoy the look and feel of. I personally prefer to stick with the models and fluff I really like and only compromise a bit for game effectiveness, but it depends on your gaming groups and stuff. A few points though;

1) Don't underestimate krox/skink units. They are often overlooked and really can hit quite hard, plus they are about the fastest infantry in the game. The fear may not be useful directed at your opponent, however, it does make your unit immune to fear. Also opponents will need to pass a check to charge you.

4) They just have a different use. Check out the article on them in the index of the tactics section. Yeah skirmishers are great, but cohorts are cheaper and have a few traits skirmishers can't do like negating ranks.

5) I feel your pain. The hand weapons look absolutely stunning. I plan for at least one of my units to have them holding hand weapons and put the spears either in their shield hand, on their back, or on their base.

6) Unless you are going for MSU or taking skink cohort units, most people do take at least some command.

 

[Sebulba]

I really like Skrox units actually. I would take them with a standard bearer and musician at least. I'm not a fan of champions but it could be nice to challenge a character so that they don't attack your kroxigors. Ultimately, I like them a lot. Go for flanks and thinks OR just run up a flank.

For 90 points you can take 3 terradons (VERY nice choice btw) but you can only take so many and dedicated shooting can limit their effectiveness. for 124 points you get a unit with some ranks and a LOT more wounds for dealing with warmachines/support units. Don't charge the core blocks of troops, your saurus can do that. Go for the weaker units on the flanks. What kind of fast cav/flankers/skirmishers in other armies would be able to deal with this unit?

 

[Batu]

unless this unit is absolutely huge it would get crushed. 3 krox with 9 hits only hit 50% of the time. yes they wound on 2+ but the skinks (which will be targeted not the krox) are going to be hit on 3+ wounded on 3+ so vs any full sized unit where your tied static combat resolution they will lose and probably run.

No one, unless they are just beginning to play the game, is going to allow you to flank them. in a straight up fight, Skrox have to be the worst unit for points ever created. almost the same points you can take saurus.

3 terridons are also not a good choice IMO. 3 attaks at WS2 S3 & 3 Attacks at WS 3 S4 are ok. the lack of armor save makes them way to vulnerable to shooting. so whatever attacks back is going to wound and probably kill the terridon. expensive IMO. if you run them in 4 they are more effective at warmachine hunting especially vs most machines with 3 crew or attacks. The dropping rocks is very good if you pick and choose your targets. preferably fast cavalry! remember you can overfly a unit and charge one behind it if 1 terridon model can see the rear unit.

I really like Skrox units actually. I would take them with a standard bearer and musician at least. I'm not a fan of champions but it could be nice to challenge a character so that they don't attack your kroxigors. Ultimately, I like them a lot. Go for flanks and thinks OR just run up a flank.

For 90 points you can take 3 terradons (VERY nice choice btw) but you can only take so many and dedicated shooting can limit their effectiveness. for 124 points you get a unit with some ranks and a LOT more wounds for dealing with warmachines/support units. Don't charge the core blocks of troops, your saurus can do that. Go for the weaker units on the flanks. What kind of fast cav/flankers/skirmishers in other armies would be able to deal with this unit?

 

[Sebulba]

Actually, terradons are pretty amazing. Probably my favorite unit in the army. However, I agree that if you just charge them in none of these units are that stellar. Fortunately, warhammer fantasy is about so much more than that.

March blocking, dropping rocks, redirecting are were the terradons shine.

However, this is not the point of this thread.


Listen, you can make a lot of those units work for you. How about you tell us about the armies that you play against and we could help you get the most out of those units you've painted up?

 

[Gor-rok]

Ahh, another chance to lobby for my favorite core unit, the giant skrox block. Honest question- has anyone that feels skrox are utterly worthless play tested them to any extent? I've had a lot of success with them, and not just against brand new players. For me anyway, they work a lot better on the board than they look on paper. (And they look great too, especially with my makeshift skink command group )

Paint 'em up, try 'em out, and sell them on Ebay if you still can't stand them I say.

 

[strewart]

unless this unit is absolutely huge it would get crushed. 3 krox with 9 hits only hit 50% of the time. yes they wound on 2+ but the skinks (which will be targeted not the krox) are going to be hit on 3+ wounded on 3+ so vs any full sized unit where your tied static combat resolution they will lose and probably run.

No one, unless they are just beginning to play the game, is going to allow you to flank them. in a straight up fight, Skrox have to be the worst unit for points ever created. almost the same points you can take saurus.

You cannot compare them to another unit of full ranked infantry in a straight fight, because it is not what they are for. Sure no one wants the skrox unit to hit their flank, but remember the majority of infantry have M4 while the skrox unit has M6 so they may not have a choice. You also need to make several units work together, in fact make your whole army work together.

Also, closely examing the terradons combat attacking power is not going to give you a good idea about what they are worth. Sounds to me like you just charge everything head first into battle. I'm sure a lot of us could still get great value out of terradons if they had no attacks at all in combat. Flying, dropping rocks, marchblocking (to aid your skrox flank charge for one), cutting off opponent retreat so units are destroyed, charging fleeing units to keep them fleeing off the board are all great uses for terradons that do not require them to be in combat. Then you can add the combat uses like mage and warmachine hunting.

 

[Batu]

@ strewart: perhaps missed my point

You were emphasizing flanking with that unit. Well to expect that unit (even M6) to be charging down anyone’s flank is foolhardy unless your playing someone who simply doesn’t support their own flank. If your opponent is running his army as a combined force then his flanks will be secure. My point was: That Skrox unit will not punch though anything to attain a flanking maneuver. And against a decent opponent, you will have to go though something to get a flank charge. unless your opponent is not protecting his flanks as you point out you do. The skinks are simply too vulnerable to enemy units protecting the enemy flank.

Sure the krox are decent but only half of their attacks will hit. The problem with the unit is not the kroxigor, it is the WS 2 S3 T2 AS5 skink. So if you run small units of skinks (8-16), about any unit of cavalry of standard size (6) will ignore the krox and kill a bucket load of skinks. Cavalry will be hitting on 3s wounding on 2s. While being hit on 4s and saving on 1+/2+ or 4+ /5+ And that is 1 attack cavalry. Charge a unit of 6 Cold ones or equivalent cavalry with 3 attacks into that Skrox unit and it gets crushed. Any high rate of fire unit will put the hurt on the unit also. (Outriders for example) Why? Due to the skinks!

No one fighting that unit will attack the kroxigors. They will direct all their hits on the skinks. The kroxigor simply will not do enough damage to offset the wounds the skinks will suffer.

If you are running 3 kroxigor (24+ skinks) then that was the unit I was talking about being (huge) and it will be about 300 points. a pretty pricy unit of primarily T2 WS2 troops. the 300 pts spent on 24 saurus would be more effective. They do not move as fast sure, but can actually do something when they get there. 25 S4 T4 WS3 attacks with 4+ AS in combat

So for or roughly the same points you can take saurus 6x4 have the ability to take a knight charge, chariot charge or what ever and probably not break. With spears they will deal out some wounds. They charge 4" less but many flanking units charge farther then Skrox also. IE Cavalry And if you run into that unit of outriders, cavalry, or any other enemy flank protecting unit, the saurus have a lot more potential to not only survive, but to actually do something when the combat begins. I would let you charge your 300 pt skrox unit into my unit of 24 saurus anyday. And probably run them down when you lost. As far as charging several units into my unit...I will have several units to protect my flank as well. And ones that can actually take hits and not die in bucket loads.

That is/was my point. Not that the unit doesn’t look good or is fun to play. But for the cost it simply is not effective due to the skinks. Running 4 kroxigors will do as much damage as that Skrox unit with better overall saves due to AS 4+ T4 of the krox and cost less.

To the confusion about terridons:
Don’t get me wrong, I like Terridons. I was simply pointing out they are very very vulnerable to shooting and combat vs 3 crew if they are run in units of 3. They are more effective 4+ in size.

As far as march blocking, they are great as long as they are not going to get shot. You simply can not fly them around dropping rocks helter skelter with out considering shooting or magic. That was my point.


Droping rocks: as I stated that is one of their best abilities. And best targeted on fast cavalry or wizards. D3 s4 hits is not what you drop on infantry formations or warmachines.


@ Sebulba Redirecting? They are skirmishers so they do not redirect, they line up on the chargers. Flying cavalry are skirmishers that do not get the -1 to hit bonus for shooting.

 

[Tetz]

Not knowing a thing about Lizardmen when I started, I built my saurus warriors with hand weapons based on "cool factor" alone. If I had to do it over again I probably would switch them to spears but the couple of games I've played I just simply pretend they're holding spears

 

[strewart]

@ strewart: perhaps missed my point

You were emphasizing flanking with that unit. Well to expect that unit (even M6) to be charging down anyone’s flank is foolhardy unless your playing someone who simply doesn’t support their own flank. If your opponent is running his army as a combined force then his flanks will be secure. My point was: That Skrox unit will not punch though anything to attain a flanking maneuver. And against a decent opponent, you will have to go though something to get a flank charge. unless your opponent is not protecting his flanks as you point out you do. The skinks are simply too vulnerable to enemy units protecting the enemy flank.

Sure the krox are decent but only half of their attacks will hit. The problem with the unit is not the kroxigor, it is the WS 2 S3 T2 AS5 skink. So if you run small units of skinks (8-16), about any unit of cavalry of standard size (6) will ignore the krox and kill a bucket load of skinks. Cavalry will be hitting on 3s wounding on 2s. While being hit on 4s and saving on 1+/2+ or 4+ /5+ And that is 1 attack cavalry. Charge a unit of 6 Cold ones or equivalent cavalry with 3 attacks into that Skrox unit and it gets crushed. Any high rate of fire unit will put the hurt on the unit also. (Outriders for example) Why? Due to the skinks!

Yeah everyone directs attacks onto the skinks. That is ok. A unit of skinks and a krox or two should be able to take out the vast majority of normal flanking units. Plus they have to deal with fear and will be away from their own general. Fast cavalry? They may kill a few skinks shooting but will die even if they charge. Unit of slaves? I would back the skinks to win. About the main flanking unit I wouldn't want anywhere near my skrox is heavy cavalry, as you have very clearly pointed out, they will destroy a unit of skrox easily.

 

[Gor-rok]

No one fighting that unit will attack the kroxigors. They will direct all their hits on the skinks. The kroxigor simply will not do enough damage to offset the wounds the skinks will suffer.

I haven't found this to be the case at all. I run a 24 & 3 skrox unit with full command in most games, and many of my opponents go after the kroxigor if they have high enough strength to feel confident wounding them. Smaller units are more prevalent in games I play, and people often find the risk of having their hard hitting unit crippled by all three kroxigor attacking back to be too great.

As long as the unit gets the charge, the kroxigor usually cause sufficient damage to offset the inevitable skink fatalities, as less enemies have a chance to hit back. It takes a lot of kills to negate this unit's static combat res. Also, with so many wounds, the skrox are far more resilient to shooting than people realize.

Batu is right that the skrox will lose every time if they charge head on into the front of a 24 strong saurus spearman block (assuming the saurus pass their fear check and aren't hitting on 6's). That's why I won't do it. I use their higher movement to position myself, and pick my targets. But keep in mind, not every army has access to something like saurus, and in many cases the skrox can take a lesser species' unit in a frontal charge- and then the one behind it. In many games, my skrox have broken an enemy unit before my saurus even get into combat.

My point is, the unit is far from worthless for it's points cost. It's not that it's better (or worse) than saurus, it's just a completely different concept, and it fills a role in my army that saurus can't. For every time I've heard someone say my skrox "can't punch through anything" or "can't survive a concentrated shooting phase" or "are a gigantic liability", I can think of a time when they've done something vital to help me in a game, and I wonder how much play testing the naysayer has really done with them. Then again, maybe I've just been really, really lucky...

 

[Caeldan]

You know my biggest deterrence to trying out a skrox group? It works out to being the most expensive monetary investment in a unit pretty much, outside of going 4+ terradons.

 

[Gor-rok]

And that, my friend, is the most valid reasoning of all. I dream of the day they offer a plastic Kroxigor kit (modeled by someone other than the person that did the new beastmen minotaurs), and a terradon kit as well. They did gargoyles for 40k in plastic, so maybe we have a chance...