7th Ed. Making Saurus Blocks viable

[Trevy the Great]

When I started playing Lizardmen, I did so for the sheer awesomeness of plunking down 50 Saurus and having them survive the game. My army was big, scary, and actually looked like an army.
Now, however, I have witnessed a dramatic shift away from the larger infantry blocks and toward the smaller more maneuverable skirmisher units.
This is unacceptable.
Saurus are the reason that I play Lizardmen, and as soon as someone tells me to drop the 40 Saurus in my army list I will go play Vampire Counts. Seriously.

So, with this in mind, I have played a couple games with my 2,000 point list (basically it's 2x18 Saurus w/ Banners, 14 TG w/ Banner and Warbanner,Slann, EoTG, 2x10 Skinks, 1x3 Terradons and a Stegadon), and in most of them my Saurus blocks get sized up by some ridiculously powerful unit before being crushed utterly beneath their heels.
So, my question is; how does one make a Saurus army work to full effectiveness.

Right now I am going with a defensive, magic-heavy build that forces the enemy to come to me. When they do, they charge my Saurus and... win. Dang.
Is a Slann or Oldblood more effective for a leader when using Saurus? I thought that the Slann's higher Leadership would be better, but often I am faced with Fear-causing opponents or simply lose be enough that the Ld 9 doesn't aid me, so I'm wondering if the combat prowess of the Oldblood wouldn't tip combats in my favor in order to win.
How big should Saurus units be? I run 18 right now (and I hear that that's the most effective solution), but I wonder if 24 would be effective, if only for that extra Rank bonus. If I'm not spending exorbitant amounts on magic, I would probably have points for such an expenditure.
What about Temple Guard? Are they worth points without the Slann simply for the increased survivability?
Has anyone had experience with such an army?

 

[The Hunted]

The list you describe is a solid one, nothing 'wrong' with that.

A slann is very good when you are using blocks of saurii. His Ld9 and BSB+cold blooded+ the awesomnes of saurus warriors (with spears!) = great.
TG are also good. They provide an excellent anvil and maximum protection for your Slann. Although sometimes the Slann runs solo, most of the time he will be spending his time with TG.
18 is probably the best unit size for saurus spears. 20 is the maximum you should go, any more and there's just too many points without much result.
Are 12 saurus spears too small for you to be considered as a 'block' ? If not, you could consider going a bit more MSU.

So, what kind of enemies are you facing? What *Uber-unit-of-eternal-carnage-and-doom* are you facing?
10 blood knights with 3 vampires? Yeah, you're bound to lose against that one....
5 empire knights on a great streak? Not so much...

By the look of it, it seems that you don't use your skinks to delay the enemy enough. Redirect them, annoy them and blast them apart with you slann+engine.
The Engine also happenes to be great vs knights!

That's all I can do for now

The Hunted

 

[strewart]

Wow I am surprised to see you having little luck with the Saurus. Really they are an excellent heavy infantry choice now and there shouldn't be too many units in the game that can easily account for them. You are using spears, yes?

As The Hunted said, the list looks solid enough. Are you playing against overpowered opponents? Don't try to take on really strong elite infantry with the saurus, especially if they have a character as well. Most midrange and almost all core should fall to the saurus.

 

[Thunder Lizard]

and in most of them my Saurus blocks get sized up by some ridiculously powerful unit before being crushed utterly beneath their heels

As good as my saurus units are I never let them fight alone. I always have a hard hitter near by to swing the battle in my favor. My fav tactic is spliting my 2 saurus units one on the left the other on the right with the engine in the middle. Next to each saurus block or close by is normally a unit of CoC or Krox in in the worse case a sal/razor. This way my enemy has to pick what unit they want. Do they want my saurus units or thier support unit? Whatever unit they pick I hit them with the other unit that they didn't pick if I can. Side note: those deathstar units are a different story! I do take spears with my saurus block for that "just in case" but I hardly use them as I like the better AS. As for temple guard I'll let you know soon I should have a game vs. Vamps this week and I'm planing on using them without a slann. Well best of luck to you

Your Friendly Thunder Lizard

 

[Caneghem]

Is your Slann also your BSB? Be sure to run a BSB, that reroll really helps in surviving nasty charges.

Also you mentioned you run a Slann and an EotG skink priest. You may want to make room in your list for a scar-vet on cold one. You mentioned you play defensively, so after deployment, or the early rounds of enemy movement, you can move your scar-vet on cold one into the Saurus spear unit that looks like it will need help. The big benefit is the fear-causing cold-one prevents your big spear unit from auto-breaking against fear causers. The Scar-vet will also add some extra punch that will help you score wounds against more well armored foes. A good item setup might be BBoC, 5+ ward, LA, and shield. This will make him decently survivable and able to dish out a lot of counter attack pain. If you come up against an army that doesn't have the ability to roll over your saurus, you can assign the scar vet to go on the offensive and have him aid your stegadon charges or counter charge things already engaged to your blocks.

With regards to unit size, I would regard 18 as the max for saurus. Spear-saurus rely more on killing with their spears to earn combat resolution than just static res. Preserving the second rank of saurus is of primary importance, not only for the rank but for keeping the full second row of saurus able to fight back. So with this in mind, don't be afraid to drop your units down to 16 or 15 to free up points. The few extra guys in the back row are for keeping your second rank fighting that much longer.

An Oldblood wouldn't suit the playstyle you have adopted, as without the Slann the lizardmen lack the long-range firepower that will force the enemy to come into your killzone. Likewise the Temple Guard without the Slann are not an optimal choice, they lose their major "anvil" abilities (stubborn and ItP).

 

[n810]

You should check out this style of lizie army....
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239720&highlight=frogs+allowed&page=3

 

[Bibamus]

i allways run 15 saurus with spears, standard and musician and most of the times they survive the battle. ofcourse their going to fall to elite units such as non-basic cavlary, black guard, etc. and monsters have a fun time with them but against anything else they're pretty much going to stay there.
in my last game against DE i had to flee wih a unit of saurus charged in the back by a dragon because it was obvious i would lose but i ccharged a black guard unit in the flank while they were engaged to the front with my TG and won after 3 turns.
don't expect too much from them at WS 3 and 4+ armor save even wih S4 T4, there are just better things out there so you have to know what to fight and what to avoid.
TG's seem quite expensive for a 2k point game so unless i play 2250-2500 i run a solo slann. he's more manouverable and he can turn towards any direction without moving a big block of infantry with him.
as for the slann, i love him, just destroy the elite units with magic and face teh weak ones with your saurus and you should win. skinks for monster.

 

[Trevy the Great]

So, what kind of enemies are you facing? What *Uber-unit-of-eternal-carnage-and-doom* are you facing?

It sounds sort of sad, but generally I get my scaly bum handed to me by Ogres. A unit of Ironguts, sometimes with a hero, sometimes without, simply charges me in the front, does around 7 casualties and outnumbers. Generally I autobreak due to Fear, but even when I don't my Leadership is modified so low so that I break anyway.

Are 12 saurus spears too small for you to be considered as a 'block' ? If not, you could consider going a bit more MSU.

The problem I've found with smaller units is that they simply don't have the stopping power of larger troops, and don't have the numbers to attack back when casualties are taken.

TG's seem quite expensive for a 2k point game so unless i play 2250-2500 i run a solo slann. he's more manouverable and he can turn towards any direction without moving a big block of infantry with him.

I'm thinking of going this way as well. The Temple Guard are a giant points sink, but seem to get ignored a little too often. The problem I see with dropping them however, is that I lose the Large Target rule for the Slann that helps me see over intervening models and terrain, but with a greater amount of maneuverability I think that this is not as important.

Now, how many Saurus blocks are useful to have? I run two as well as a TG block, but I get the feeling that just two units of 18 is enough, and the extra points can go to smaller, support units for the larger blocks.
What sort of support do people use? I run a Stegadon in my 2k point list, but that generally goes off and destroys other support units or smaller attack units before they can reach my lines.

 

[n810]

Yea I to have had a hard time against Ogres...
especialy since I like to run a lot of Saurus blocks,
you might consider taking larger blocks with a
cold one mounted scarvet in it, this will keep you
from being outnumbered by fear causers as much,
and adding some much needed high strenght hits.

I would recomend Razordons over Salamander when fighting Ogres
since they have no armor and fight in groups of 3 or 4 they can
be easy you miss with the tomplae and even if you hit them all
its only like 3 or 4 hits... razors on the other hand will only
miss on a misfire and will throw out a lot more hits, I recomend
on taking a unit of 3.

Massed Skinks are quite efective againsy Ogres, they just can't
take 20 poison shots thrown at them every turn, just avoid leting them
get charged, as they will soon die horibly.

 

[erians]

It sounds sort of sad, but generally I get my scaly bum handed to me by Ogres. A unit of Ironguts, sometimes with a hero, sometimes without, simply charges me in the front, does around 7 casualties and outnumbers. Generally I autobreak due to Fear, but even when I don't my Leadership is modified so low so that I break anyway.

Stick a Cold One Scar-vet in your saurus block and you are effectivly immune to fear (technically you case fear with US 2, but it still ignores other fear causers, and treat terror as fear). A Scar vet with Enchanted Shield and the Piranha Blade is a pretty amazing anti-ogre dude, should do 2-4 wounds easily (3.4 on avarage).

The problem I've found with smaller units is that they simply don't have the stopping power of larger troops, and don't have the numbers to attack back when casualties are taken.

Fighting Iron Guts or Man eaters I can see this as a pretty big problem, but smaller units should do fine against units of 3-4 bulls, especially with a BSB within 12" so you re-roll tests.

I'm thinking of going this way as well. The Temple Guard are a giant points sink, but seem to get ignored a little too often. The problem I see with dropping them however, is that I lose the Large Target rule for the Slann that helps me see over intervening models and terrain, but with a greater amount of maneuverability I think that this is not as important.

This depends on what kind of terrain that usually is on your tables, but we usually play with a hill or two in our tables (very rarely in the deployment zone tho), which covers the LOS problem. Otherwise he does gets easier to hide from, but depending on what lore you pick this can be either a inconvinience and a limitation, or no difference at all.

Now, how many Saurus blocks are useful to have? I run two as well as a TG block, but I get the feeling that just two units of 18 is enough, and the extra points can go to smaller, support units for the larger blocks.
What sort of support do people use? I run a Stegadon in my 2k point list, but that generally goes off and destroys other support units or smaller attack units before they can reach my lines.

Looking at your list its actually pretty damn competative. Double steg, part slann in TGs, and some chaff, which is pretty stock standard, except you have +12 saurus (2x18 instead of the more common 2x12). Stegs are best used as support for the Saurus. Be within BSB range, let the enemy crash into your lines while the stegs swoops down a flank, most likley hold and then its good night: steg in the flank.

I've run 2x18, 3x18, 3x12 and 2x12, and my favourite is either 2x18 or 3x12 (my tournament scene is pretty friendly and harshly comped tho. where Saurus actually does incredibly well due to lack of OOT shoot and avoidance lists). A bsb is EVERYTHING tho, a unit of 12 Saurus with a Scar Vet BSB can easily hold or even break tough units.

Example: 12 Saurus with FC, Scar vet with BSB, BBoTC and ES. A unit of 4 Ironguts charges. As you know you will never get the charged off you already marshed right up in his face to avoid impact hits. With 12 attacks they hit 6 and kills 5 as the Spear wielding saurus gets no save. 5 Saurus and a Scar-Vet strikes back, Saurus does ~2.1 wounds (5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 6+ save) and the svar vet does ~1.8 wounds. Close to 4 wounds back, then get had a rank and 2 banners, 7 CR vs 5 (+1 if they have a banner). A unit of 12 Saurus and BSB wins. Now the saurus costs a hell of a lot more due to the svar vet so that comparison isnt really fair, but even if the unit had a Hero in them and did a total of 8 wounds while the saurus +scar vet only does 2.6 wounds back, they loose by 3-5 (depending on if the ogres have a banner). If your Slann is close, and he should be, a cold blooded LD 6 test with reroll has 89% (!!!) chance to hold, while a LD 4 test has 58% (which means you will hold most times). Then the stegs arrive....

The only problem I have with units of 12 is that they can't really survive mutliple combats against decent enemys or characters, and they have a lot of problem against shooting as every lost saurus is 2 lost attacks in CC, but they very rarely see more than 1 important combat and skinks can screen them from shooting while the terradons goes hunting.

 

[Bibamus]

i find that 15 saursu work best, its the balanced between 18 (wich i see as an exces of saurus given the point cost) and hte insufficience of 12 (+1 rank bonus fades after the 1st round of combat and if they lose 3-4 saurus they can barely capture table quarters since they probably will die to fast cav even)

 

[Batu]

I have played literally hundreds of battles with the lizardmen. I am at a total loss why anyone would think MSU armies are even remotely intimidating. 12-18 anything simply suck. I cant tell you how many MSU armies I have crushed from the field. especially in 7th ed where Static combat resolution and elite infantry dominate. I have never lost the center of my line (shield wall) of saurus to any army that wasn’t so cheesed out as to be silly. 3 saurus blocks 6x4 will hold against virtually anyone. The only way MSU armies have a remote chance is to try to flank. Well run your units in support of each other and flanking is not a major worry.

MSU will simply get crushed if they charge a 6.4 saurus block in the front. Even WoC will nurgal will loose at that size.

Ogres.. they can not do enough wounds to overcome static combat resolution unless you run your saurus in small units. unless they are running 15 bulls let them charge. 5 str 4 impact hits (shrug). you will fight back with 25 st 4 attacks. IG while a bit tougher are not going to do substantially more damage. They also have great weapons so attack last. they charge they take 25 st4 attacks. Run the math on 6x4 saurus charging or being charged by a typical unit of bulls or IG. Ogres simply can not compete and cost 3x as much. Just played a 2500pt game vs OK who ran bulls, IG, Belchers, man eaters etc. Was an easy win.

OK high toughness doesn’t offset their crapy AS! Their characters are scary but so are LM characters. Especially on a carny. And they can be placed inside units if you like. Just do not let leadbelchers shoot them out of the unit.

keeping your flanks secure is fairly simple if your not running your army as a scattered group of individual units. Especially if your supporting your line with EoG in tandum. 2d6 S4 no AS unstoppable spells will really put the hurt on other elite infantry.

CoR are perfect infantry shredders with 3 attacks S5/4. Sally will decimate infantry blocks or knights if shot 8" or 10" away. Skink cohorts suck for anything but redirecting but excell at that.

It sounds sort of sad, but generally I get my scaly bum handed to me by Ogres. A unit of Ironguts, sometimes with a hero, sometimes without, simply charges me in the front, does around 7 casualties and outnumbers. Generally I autobreak due to Fear, but even when I don't my Leadership is modified so low so that I break anyway.

Stick a Cold One Scar-vet in your saurus block and you are effectivly immune to fear (technically you case fear with US 2, but it still ignores other fear causers, and treat terror as fear). A Scar vet with Enchanted Shield and the Piranha Blade is a pretty amazing anti-ogre dude, should do 2-4 wounds easily (3.4 on avarage).

The problem I've found with smaller units is that they simply don't have the stopping power of larger troops, and don't have the numbers to attack back when casualties are taken.

Fighting Iron Guts or Man eaters I can see this as a pretty big problem, but smaller units should do fine against units of 3-4 bulls, especially with a BSB within 12" so you re-roll tests.

I'm thinking of going this way as well. The Temple Guard are a giant points sink, but seem to get ignored a little too often. The problem I see with dropping them however, is that I lose the Large Target rule for the Slann that helps me see over intervening models and terrain, but with a greater amount of maneuverability I think that this is not as important.

This depends on what kind of terrain that usually is on your tables, but we usually play with a hill or two in our tables (very rarely in the deployment zone tho), which covers the LOS problem. Otherwise he does gets easier to hide from, but depending on what lore you pick this can be either a inconvinience and a limitation, or no difference at all.

Now, how many Saurus blocks are useful to have? I run two as well as a TG block, but I get the feeling that just two units of 18 is enough, and the extra points can go to smaller, support units for the larger blocks.
What sort of support do people use? I run a Stegadon in my 2k point list, but that generally goes off and destroys other support units or smaller attack units before they can reach my lines.

Looking at your list its actually pretty damn competative. Double steg, part slann in TGs, and some chaff, which is pretty stock standard, except you have +12 saurus (2x18 instead of the more common 2x12). Stegs are best used as support for the Saurus. Be within BSB range, let the enemy crash into your lines while the stegs swoops down a flank, most likley hold and then its good night: steg in the flank.

I've run 2x18, 3x18, 3x12 and 2x12, and my favourite is either 2x18 or 3x12 (my tournament scene is pretty friendly and harshly comped tho. where Saurus actually does incredibly well due to lack of OOT shoot and avoidance lists). A bsb is EVERYTHING tho, a unit of 12 Saurus with a Scar Vet BSB can easily hold or even break tough units.

Example: 12 Saurus with FC, Scar vet with BSB, BBoTC and ES. A unit of 4 Ironguts charges. As you know you will never get the charged off you already marshed right up in his face to avoid impact hits. With 12 attacks they hit 6 and kills 5 as the Spear wielding saurus gets no save. 5 Saurus and a Scar-Vet strikes back, Saurus does ~2.1 wounds (5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 6+ save) and the svar vet does ~1.8 wounds. Close to 4 wounds back, then get had a rank and 2 banners, 7 CR vs 5 (+1 if they have a banner). A unit of 12 Saurus and BSB wins. Now the saurus costs a hell of a lot more due to the svar vet so that comparison isnt really fair, but even if the unit had a Hero in them and did a total of 8 wounds while the saurus +scar vet only does 2.6 wounds back, they loose by 3-5 (depending on if the ogres have a banner). If your Slann is close, and he should be, a cold blooded LD 6 test with reroll has 89% (!!!) chance to hold, while a LD 4 test has 58% (which means you will hold most times). Then the stegs arrive....

The only problem I have with units of 12 is that they can't really survive mutliple combats against decent enemys or characters, and they have a lot of problem against shooting as every lost saurus is 2 lost attacks in CC, but they very rarely see more than 1 important combat and skinks can screen them from shooting while the terradons goes hunting.

 

[Trevy the Great]

I would recomend Razordons over Salamander when fighting Ogres since they have no armor and fight in groups of 3 or 4 they can be easy you miss with the tomplae and even if you hit them all its only like 3 or 4 hits... razors on the other hand will only miss on a misfire and will throw out a lot more hits, I recomend on taking a unit of 3.

I'm considering taking Razordons (my new list has a unit of them), but how effective are they against other armies, such as more Horde lists that can soak the damage or more heavily armored opponents that can shake off the -1 Save without much difficulty.

The only problem I have with units of 12 is that they can't really survive mutliple combats against decent enemys or characters, and they have a lot of problem against shooting...

This is exactly the problem that I have. I have never found an opponent who is willing to charge a unit of Saurus without a large kill unit, often accompanied by a character, and if I'm having trouble holding with 18 Saurus I don't think that 12 stand a chance.

Ogres.. they can not do enough wounds to overcome static combat resolution unless you run your saurus in small units. unless they are running 15 bulls let them charge. 5 str 4 impact hits (shrug). you will fight back with 25 st 4 attacks. IG while a bit tougher are not going to do substantially more damage. They also have great weapons so attack last. they charge they take 25 st4 attacks. Run the math on 6x4 saurus charging or being charged by a typical unit of bulls or IG.

I really don't know where you are coming from, here. Bulls may not be able to do enough wounds to me to overcome static res (especially after I attack back), but I am certainly never going to do as well as you predict against them. Especially against Ironguts and other hard-hitters, who are consistently going to kill 6-7 Saurus on their charge, making it hard to win back in combat res and severely limiting my ability to attack back and do any sort of damage at all.

 

[JohnMavrick]

I've played Ogres before in the past and more often than not I used the MSU tactic with them. Baiting charges and counter charging, getting a couple of units of yetties on the flank and a gorger in the rear. No one ever complained that my list was cheese but I'll tell you, of all the armies I faced with them (yet even every concievable lizardmen list) I never lost more than a couple of battles against them.

Trust me when I say, MSU tactics work. And not just for Ogres. Wood Elves excel at MSU. They are my other army I play with now besides Lizards and I've NEVER lost a fight with my WE. I play balanced lists of shooting/close combat and magic defense. I often use MSU tactics against my opponents to which I'm so very often able to surround and counter their large blocks with multiple units and deal out so many attacks they can't hold up. Rememer that spears can not be used against units on your flank or rear...

If your facing an MSU army the castle tactic works very well. Because MSU calls for gaining flanks and rear charges he's going to spread his army a little thin across the board. If you deploy your entire force in a corner and then move out from there you can take on his army peice meal and eat him alive. Your ENTIRE force against a PORTION of his force. Barring bad dice victory is assured!

 

[n810]

I'm considering taking Razordons (my new list has a unit of them), but how effective are they against other armies, such as more Horde lists that can soak the damage or more heavily armored opponents that can shake off the -1 Save without much difficulty

Razors have completly diferent perfered targets from Salies,
they perfer to shoot at skirmishers, light cav, monsters, lone characters...
(Razors tend to work better in big groups)

Where as Salies perfer to burn big blocks of infantry, low LD targets,
things with a good armor save, and other things that are hard to miss.
(for LD checks people often run multiple single units)

Keep in mind that both units can actualy do perty well in combat if
they aren't outnumbered too bad.

 

[Maedhros]

Lots of good advice in this tread so far, been a good read. One thing I wanted to mention as I hadn't seen it so far is that if you do choose to run your slann solo you don't have to worry much about losing large target LoS since you can just channel through your skink priest on the EotG.

 

[Caneghem]

Lots of good advice in this tread so far, been a good read. One thing I wanted to mention as I hadn't seen it so far is that if you do choose to run your slann solo you don't have to worry much about losing large target LoS since you can just channel through your skink priest on the EotG.

Remember though, channeling only works with magic missiles, so only a handful of spells.

 

[Dave G]

Couple of things I though might benefit the discussion:

1) One thing that I've come to realize with Saurus blocks (and most likely holds true for everything) is that you have to know what size unit you can take and which you can't. I, mistakenly, used to classify things by unit type and not by unit and size.

For example: 6 flesh hounds is too much, where as 5 flesh hounds isn't.

2) We have fantastic re-directors. Using these to lure away or slow those things down is important for keeping your blocks around.

2b) For things that can't be redirected (large flyers). I try and use my Saurus blocks as bait. If the take the bait, then you can skink the crap out of them.

3) Fear is a major downfall of Saurus. Be aware of that. You can protect them from this (somewhat) with Scar-vets on Cold Ones.

 

[JohnMavrick]

For example: 6 flesh hounds is too much, where as 5 flesh hounds isn't.

I respectfully disagree. I very often run cav units (same base size) in units of six. Though it's another 50 mm wide I don't think it decreases their movement by any significant margin as compaired to their now increased number of attacks. Not to mention it's HIGHLY likely to see Saurus in blocks six models wide. Given six Saurus have the same front facing as six CoC I think it's perfectly viable.

3) Fear is a major downfall of Saurus. Be aware of that. You can protect them from this (somewhat) with Scar-vets on Cold Ones.

Cold blooded with leadership 8, not sure if they are in that much danger. The Scar vets have the same leadership value. The only thing that has higher leadership is the Slann (and the jungle swarm but that doesn't count).

 

[The Hunted]

\

Couple of things I though might benefit the discussion:

1) One thing that I've come to realize with Saurus blocks (and most likely holds true for everything) is that you have to know what size unit you can take and which you can't. I, mistakenly, used to classify things by unit type and not by unit and size.

For example: 6 flesh hounds is too much, where as 5 flesh hounds isn't.

I agree with you Dave G. For some units, that is.
For cavalry, running 6 wide is doable (although 5 is favoured). 7 is the absolute max you'd ever want to run cavalry. And then you would probably want 2 characters in the front. At least 1!
6 Wide saurii is, ofcourse, very good. Saurus warriors can be run 5 or 6 wide, it doesn't really matter that much.



3) Fear is a major downfall of Saurus. Be aware of that. You can protect them from this (somewhat) with Scar-vets on Cold Ones.
Fear itself isn't that much of a threat.
Fear+outnumber is very dangerous. But that counts for every (infantry) unit that doesn't cause fear itself.
Dwarves, Empire, Wood Elves (the elves, not the trees), High elves, Dark elves to an extent, Beasts of chaos, Warriors of Chaos, Brettonia, Skaven....
All armies have difficulties, some more than others. Dark Elves fare pretty well. As their hammers/true anvils are usually protected against fear, or are a death-star.

Saurii's main counter vs fear is their spears, high ACR>some SCR. Scar-vet+CO is superb. Then again, you cannot charge him out (if you aim for fear protection). Nor can you accept challenges from strong Vamps, for instance. And, as the biggest drawback, you suffer from STUPIDity...

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The Hunted