AoS Lord Kroak Resurgence

[Tyranitar]

Lord Kroak seems to be popping up frequently in a variety lists in tournaments across the world which is really exciting! Does anyone have insight on why this may be the case? I'm guessing it's because there's less magic resistance at the top of the meta, SCE for example not having great spellcasters, so kroak is free to do damage and also shuts down whatever magic the enemy is trying with relative ease. There's also a lot of heavier armor at the top so the mortal spam is even more valuable.

The model is amazing so I'm glad to see it hitting the table more often!

 

[Bowser]

A lot of the time there is a lot of huff and puff when a model/unit gets a nerf or a new ruleset, however once the dust settles and people start using the model to see how bad it is, it usually isn't that bad.

A very cool model, new sculpt and good seller, Kroak was never in danger of a hard nerf, just a new meta.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Lord Kroak seems to be popping up frequently in a variety lists in tournaments across the world which is really exciting! Does anyone have insight on why this may be the case? I'm guessing it's because there's less magic resistance at the top of the meta, SCE for example not having great spellcasters, so kroak is free to do damage and also shuts down whatever magic the enemy is trying with relative ease. There's also a lot of heavier armor at the top so the mortal spam is even more valuable.

The model is amazing so I'm glad to see it hitting the table more often!

salamanders keep getting nurffed and he is our best alternative.

 

[Lambs and Lions]

I have been noticing this too and I think there are a few reasons why.

1) kroak was never bad. Both kroak and Slann are amazingly strong. High casting with board wide damage and dispell, it's really insane. Slann gives you that but cheaper. But if you wanna pump out mortal wounds then kroak does much more damage and is worth his points.

2) The Kroak needs support myth. To get the most out of kroak you need to run an astrolith bearer and tons of guard, which makes kroak cost a huge chunk of your army. But while support is nice you don't actually have to run it. You can put an arcane tome on the EotG you are already taking or you can let him just target closer units. You don't need to spend half your list supporting him.

3) The myth that he dies too easy. His ability is swingy but he is actually pretty hard to kill. You will hear stories of people taking 3 damage and him dying but really he needs to be bursted down. Most the time he will be taking wounds and shrugging them off when the phase ends.

4) SoB is no longer on top. Kroak does really well against multiple little smaller heros. He can chip them down and kill the utility of an army. When SoB was on top the mortal wounds kroak was pumping out was not that great and SoB was one of our harder mach ups.

I think with Idoneth Deepkin's new book Kroak is going to see even more play. IDK is putting a lot of hurt on shooting and magic morals can be real important in killing problem unites before they come into melee range. I am predicting that IDK will be a top army and really kill shooting armies like lumineth, daughters and storm cast.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

I have been noticing this too and I think there are a few reasons why.

1) kroak was never bad. Both kroak and Slann are amazingly strong. High casting with board wide damage and dispell, it's really insane. Slann gives you that but cheaper. But if you wanna pump out mortal wounds then kroak does much more damage and is worth his points.

no one thought he was bad they thought he wasn't as good and he's not.

2) The Kroak needs support myth. To get the most out of kroak you need to run an astrolith bearer and tons of guard, which makes kroak cost a huge chunk of your army. But while support is nice you don't actually have to run it. You can put an arcane tome on the EotG you are already taking or you can let him just target closer units. You don't need to spend half your list supporting him.

while you can forgo the astrolith you had dame well better take guard in current competitive. most shooting will take a 4+ save right off the board.

3) The myth that he dies too easy. His ability is swingy but he is actually pretty hard to kill. You will hear stories of people taking 3 damage and him dying but really he needs to be bursted down. Most the time he will be taking wounds and shrugging them off when the phase ends.

he does die to easily. not because he can get snipped at 3 wounds taken but because he dies at 12 wounds taken or 21. he is a 4+ save model that is INCREDIBLY flimsy. 2 salamanders in a mirror match or 30 buffed skinks will take him of in one go without guard let alone what other armies can do. SCE can kill him turn 1 86% of the time even with full guard complement no roll just strait 18 damage. him loosing his ward makes him strait up less durable no matter how you slice it.

4) SoB is no longer on top. Kroak does really well against multiple little smaller heros. He can chip them down and kill the utility of an army. When SoB was on top the mortal wounds kroak was pumping out was not that great and SoB was one of our harder mach ups.

I think with Idoneth Deepkin's new book Kroak is going to see even more play. IDK is putting a lot of hurt on shooting and magic morals can be real important in killing problem unites before they come into melee range. I am predicting that IDK will be a top army and really kill shooting armies like lumineth, daughters and storm cast.

no complaints here this is absolutely true

Kroak isn't a bad unit he just isn't a great unit, he does his job. i don't like that job for the same reason i didn't like the old bastiladon. a lot of MWs spread over a lot of units has the down side of leaving a lot of people standing to punch you in the face.

 

[Schneelachs]

The Reason you will see him rise is the match up vs Nurgle.

A slow army running into your bubble and your doing flat three damage with Celestial Deliverance feels like an auto win

I was at a Tournament last week and 20% was Nurgle players...

 

[Jason839]

I dont think Kroak is a tool that has been needed until recently. We have been able to get away with a lot thanks to Ghur. With that advantage getting ready to go away, Kroak may increase in utility.

 

[Tyranitar]

The Reason you will see him rise is the match up vs Nurgle.

A slow army running into your bubble and your doing flat three damage with Celestial Deliverance feels like an auto win

I was at a Tournament last week and 20% was Nurgle players...

The nurgle matchup is an observation I didn't really think about, that makes a ton of sense. Our book is good enough that we can afford to "give up" the extra 170 pts to upgrade from a slann to kroak which might not really benefit some matchups but helps a ton against one of the top armies.

 

[Killer Angel]

2) The Kroak needs support myth. To get the most out of kroak you need to run an astrolith bearer and tons of guard, which makes kroak cost a huge chunk of your army. But while support is nice you don't actually have to run it. You can put an arcane tome on the EotG you are already taking or you can let him just target closer units. You don't need to spend half your list supporting him.

You are saying it yourself. "to get the most out of Kroak"
Yes, you don't need all the possible support (albeit no guards it's a risky gamble) and you can certainly run a "vanilla" Kroak.
The question is more: do you want to invest more points to have Kroak at full potential?

 

[Putzfrau]

Think people are just exploring options and bringing him cause it's a classic "centerpiece" model that seraphon have never had.

Seraphon is so good you can do whatever. Mentioned koatls has gone 5-0 twice since December (same player) which is better than kroak has done over the same time period. I wouldn't necessarily say there's some deep reason for it other than people are playing what they want to play and seraphon is one of the few books that doesnt massively punish you for taking suboptimal choices.

Imo dragons make kroak a "worse" matchup choice than he's ever been but it's pretty minor.

 

[PabloTho]

Imo dragons make kroak a "worse" matchup choice than he's ever been but it's pretty minor.

TBH I'm already struggling with dragons flying in on turn 1 and roasting a minor hero of their choosing. Really hard to keep those heroes out of range of their breath while still being in range to hand out key buffs.

I can only imagine that it's even harder with Kroak's larger base. They don't give a shit about magic either so you can't really even counterpunch effectively if he survives that first round.

...I hate dragons.

 

[Killer Angel]

...I hate dragons.

i am waiting / hoping for their nerf. It will be a good day.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

it might just be me but i've never found dragons that threatening. difficult to deal with to be sure but we have had to fight worse with less(early FEC comes to mind). dragons either win on the charge or they loose outright. they are so much of a investment that they walk a knife edge in most games, 18 wounds for 340 isn't all that great even with a 3+ save and if they don't cripple you you can knock half of them off the table fairly easily. screening well and then counterpunching is important when they are on the field and i have yet to loose a game againsed them.

 

[Killer Angel]

it might just be me but i've never found dragons that threatening. difficult to deal with to be sure but we have had to fight worse with less(early FEC comes to mind). dragons either win on the charge or they loose outright. they are so much of a investment that they walk a knife edge in most games, 18 wounds for 340 isn't all that great even with a 3+ save and if they don't cripple you you can knock half of them off the table fairly easily. screening well and then counterpunching is important when they are on the field and i have yet to loose a game againsed them.

well, looking at monsters that can be battleline too, we field 12 wounds with 265 pts, so 18 w for 340 is cheaper and with a far better statline.
But it's all the rest of their abilities that is unbalanced. Only because you can counter them if you know what you're doing and your opponent doesn't, it doesn't mean that dragons are a fair and balanced unit.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

well, looking at monsters that can be battleline too, we field 12 wounds with 265 pts, so 18 w for 340 is cheaper and with a far better statline.
But it's all the rest of their abilities that is unbalanced. Only because you can counter them if you know what you're doing and your opponent doesn't, it doesn't mean that dragons are a fair and balanced unit.

stegs aren't good defensive units(with out scaly skin they are even worse) and that wasn't my point. my point is they are far more glass then people give them credit. and very expensive glass at that.

 

[Killer Angel]

my point is they are far more glass then people give them credit. and very expensive glass at that.

Sure, that's not a baseless claim.
every wound inflicted (even via MWs) is not negligible, but to break the glass you still need to focus and know what you're doing.
With shooting, to bypass save 3+ and AOD you need high volume of shots or good rend.
To reach melee, you risk their Unleash Hell (which is among the most dangerous ones) so you probably want to employ a double charge (and redeploy could be a problem).
Combine these with their superior move, and they are a threat. THe only times i've had no problems in dealing with them, was when my opponent wasn't enough able in moving them. But that's a fault of the user, not of the tool.

 

[PabloTho]

it might just be me but i've never found dragons that threatening. difficult to deal with to be sure but we have had to fight worse with less(early FEC comes to mind). dragons either win on the charge or they loose outright. they are so much of a investment that they walk a knife edge in most games, 18 wounds for 340 isn't all that great even with a 3+ save and if they don't cripple you you can knock half of them off the table fairly easily. screening well and then counterpunching is important when they are on the field and i have yet to loose a game againsed them.

What kind of list are you running that deals with them?

My own lists generally have enough screens to prevent them from charging anything valuable, but I find it pretty much impossible to hide all of my valuable stuff out of range of the breath attack (usually playing against a unit of 4, which kills or cripples whatever it targets).

Scaly Skin goes a long way in mitigating their effectiveness in combat, but they'll still get through screens quickly enough to be a nuisance for the rest of the game. They'll float around dealing mortals, then dealing more mortals when you attempt to charge them, and then taking little damage in return because not much gets past a 3+ with All Out Defence.

Then, once you've killed 2 or 3 of them your opponent might even get lucky with a Rally to put 9 (or more) wounds with that 3+ save back on the table.

Also important to note that dragons aren't usually even the key threat - they're a giant, obnoxious tarpit unit that captures all of your attention while Fulminators drop out of the sky and chew through the rest of your army without even trying.

Genuinely looking for advice here - I've clinched wins against them but I've always owed it to lucky turn priority. Obviously Seraphon is still outperforming Stormcast across the wider competitive meta so it will come down to an issue with my playstyle. Just wondering what key units or strategies I'm missing that would help - because at face value, Kroak ain't it.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

What kind of list are you running that deals with them?

My own lists generally have enough screens to prevent them from charging anything valuable, but I find it pretty much impossible to hide all of my valuable stuff out of range of the breath attack (usually playing against a unit of 4, which kills or cripples whatever it targets).

Scaly Skin goes a long way in mitigating their effectiveness in combat, but they'll still get through screens quickly enough to be a nuisance for the rest of the game. They'll float around dealing mortals, then dealing more mortals when you attempt to charge them, and then taking little damage in return because not much gets past a 3+ with All Out Defence.

Then, once you've killed 2 or 3 of them your opponent might even get lucky with a Rally to put 9 (or more) wounds with that 3+ save back on the table.

Also important to note that dragons aren't usually even the key threat - they're a giant, obnoxious tarpit unit that captures all of your attention while Fulminators drop out of the sky and chew through the rest of your army without even trying.

Genuinely looking for advice here - I've clinched wins against them but I've always owed it to lucky turn priority. Obviously Seraphon is still outperforming Stormcast across the wider competitive meta so it will come down to an issue with my playstyle. Just wondering what key units or strategies I'm missing that would help - because at face value, Kroak ain't it.

my primary list is a cities one with a bunch of screens and heavy shooting but i have made it work with salamanders in seraphon.
i always run 5+ screens, it's not popular any more but i find it deals with all the problems people seem to have in the game. general screening is: important thing 2-4" second screen 6" first screen. except for the first turn this is not hard to set up and if you use terrain and flank guards even protects from their 24" move nonsense as they can't end any were inside your formation so they get stuck 3" in front of the first screen. the 6" is so they can't jump the line and the second screen catches long charges and prevents dragon fire from hitting important thing. anything that gets caught on the first screen is still in range of salamanders/iron drakes and i put lesser buff heroes in-between the ranks to act as bait.
important thing needs to be either a heavy hitting range or melee unit that can reliably do 18ish damage to dragons. 4 salamanders do this well so do 60 skinks or 2 stegadons mass knights with venom/curse might also be a option but it needs to be a very heavy hammer(i use iron drakes or great swords). 5 screens also give you the option to soak the unleash hell.
the above method also works very well with fulminators even better really since they don't fly.

 

[Putzfrau]

What kind of list are you running that deals with them?

My own lists generally have enough screens to prevent them from charging anything valuable, but I find it pretty much impossible to hide all of my valuable stuff out of range of the breath attack (usually playing against a unit of 4, which kills or cripples whatever it targets).

Scaly Skin goes a long way in mitigating their effectiveness in combat, but they'll still get through screens quickly enough to be a nuisance for the rest of the game. They'll float around dealing mortals, then dealing more mortals when you attempt to charge them, and then taking little damage in return because not much gets past a 3+ with All Out Defence.

Then, once you've killed 2 or 3 of them your opponent might even get lucky with a Rally to put 9 (or more) wounds with that 3+ save back on the table.

Also important to note that dragons aren't usually even the key threat - they're a giant, obnoxious tarpit unit that captures all of your attention while Fulminators drop out of the sky and chew through the rest of your army without even trying.

Genuinely looking for advice here - I've clinched wins against them but I've always owed it to lucky turn priority. Obviously Seraphon is still outperforming Stormcast across the wider competitive meta so it will come down to an issue with my playstyle. Just wondering what key units or strategies I'm missing that would help - because at face value, Kroak ain't it.

Curse is huge against dragons. If youre running skinks in coalesced they don't really do that much damage outside their breaths. They are gonna look to come in and pin you so you wanna just make sure there's avenues for you to get out of your deoyment zone and your curse will be in range when they hit your screens.

Its not an easy matchup, thats for sure.

 

[Schneelachs]

Just a short reminder that after the Update for "Priority Targets" the full dragon list will see no play on any Tournaments.