8th Ed. Lizardmen vs. Warriors of Chaos

[Ixt]

Hey, guys.

Just finished up a 2k point game against WoC and I was wondering whether anybody has any advice concerning a particularly nasty kind of WoC list:

Fully kitted flying Nurgle DP
2 Gorebeast Chariots (I think Nurgle?)
24 Nurgle Chaos Warriors
4 Skullcrushers
8 Chaos Knights (maybe nurgle? Forgot)
2 units of 6 hounds

This is sort of a break from the normal list my pal brings, but it honestly seemed a lot better than the normal one. The difference between this and the other is that 2 Chimeras and I believe 6 Warriors replace the chaos knights and hounds.

I brought an all-comers list that has lost only one out of its last 6 games against fairly tough armies, but it was basically in tatters by turn 2 - he got first turn, and was more or less within charge range for the following turn despite terrain and me doing my best to maneuver.

So, yeah, any advice? I mean, do we even have an all-comers list that can beat either of the two WoC lists I've mentioned?

Everyone at the hobby store has flatly told me, "If you know he's playing a list like that, you need to tailor to it... no army's all-comers can beat that WoC list."

None play Lizardmen, but I kinda agree with them - all that his list has to do in order to win is move forward.

It seems that it's practically impossible to keep up after turn 2 or 3 (3 being the longest I was able to redirect & harry). Any help would be appreciated (I really hate using a tailored list against someone - feels cheap, even when their list is so competitive).

 

[GCPD]

Find a new opponent.

Seriously though, this has come up a few times and if you do a search you should get some good tips. I've found castling up somewhere to be good. Prioritise targets in order of speed: prince first, then chimeras (lesser priority as they can be broken in combat easily) then skull crushers, other cav, then chariots and lastly anything on foot. Use terrain to your advantage to force dangerous terrain etc.

 

[NexS1]

Find a new opponent.

An accurate piece of advice.


Another option is getting a sharpened horns stegadon charge in on the Daemon Prince. If you can get a couple of wounds through, you can kill him straight up.
If your opponent is playing that dirty, you can too. Give you slann piranha blade ("gives the model special rules D3 Wounds and Armour Piercing") and lore of metal. Going by the wording of the item, every wound your slann does will inflict D3 wounds., including magic.

 

[Ixt]

Find a new opponent.

An accurate piece of advice.

Sheesh! xD

Luckily, he just bought my friend's High Elf army, so I (hopefully) won't be doomed from the outset anymore. Unless he goes for another powerbuild with them, anyway. These kinds of lists -- they're just not fun for casual games.

I'm kind of between a rock and a hard place on this one... he's a friend of a friend, but he is an unrelenting powergamer at the same time. This was his idea of 'a more balanced list,' and after our game he openly mulled on the idea of bringing the disc-riding unkillable Tzeentch sorceror. (sigh) -_-

I just sorta shook my head and (as sportsmanly as I could) told him that I wouldn't play against any list with that build. I usually do pretty well against high elves but, again, I was playing against 'all-comers,' not 'all-powerful.'

Seriously though, this has come up a few times and if you do a search you should get some good tips. I've found castling up somewhere to be good. Prioritise targets in order of speed: prince first, then chimeras (lesser priority as they can be broken in combat easily) then skull crushers, other cav, then chariots and lastly anything on foot. Use terrain to your advantage to force dangerous terrain etc.

Ah, sorry man - being both new to forum etiquette & a kinesthetic learner, I tend to just dive right into new topics without running a search.. I'll be sure to do one after this post.

Unfortunately, I actually did all of these things. I had a light castle -- kept my skinks fanned out a bit as a buffer, but it still didn't do much by way of helping. Tried to bait long charges/establish a no-fire zone, buuuut since everything was M7 or higher with Swiftstride..... -_-

I made sure to put a good bit of terrain up, but he passed all of his dangerous terrain tests (and, even if he hadn't -- his models, they're all like 4+ wounds!).

I managed to chew through his Warriors with a Fiery Convocation (he opted not to dispel it lol, lost nearly half his unit), I got a turbo'd Soul Quench on his knights (did nothing against their armor), threw a gazillion javelins (most of which were picked up by armor on otherwise high-wound targets).

So, yeah, short of two mistakes (forgot to exchange a spell first-turn, forgot to have my priest leave a unit on the other turn), I played as smart as I could, but I was crushed real fast. It's just such a one-dimensional, 'move forward and kill everything' army... -_-

It's frustrating to lose to something that requires such little thought. Monster mash Tyranids w/ rending genestealers in 5th ed. 40k & two-hour shooting phase IG gunlines have nothing on this army!

Another option is getting a sharpened horns stegadon charge in on the Daemon Prince. If you can get a couple of wounds through, you can kill him straight up.
If your opponent is playing that dirty, you can too. Give you slann piranha blade ("gives the model special rules D3 Wounds and Armour Piercing") and lore of metal. Going by the wording of the item, every wound your slann does will inflict D3 wounds., including magic.

Woah! I mean, I've done the Stegadon thing before with some success (though it is quickly dropped by the rest of the army), but that Piranha Blade thing is just heinous. xD

As much as I like to win, I can't will myself to adopt those kinds of tactics. x_x Goal #1 is for my opponent to have fun and for them to want to play me again...

So, I guess that answers my question then: the hobbystore folks were right? All-comers just don't match up (or, at least, require a hell of a lot of luck and precision)?

Come on, guys! I just... I...

(looks to the heavens)

 

[NexS1]

I collect both Lizardmen and High Elves, and without "Power Building" Warriors of Chaos are very difficult to beat because they are simply the best at ever part of the game, other than shooting (but can have daemon cannons).
High strength, toughness, great magic and amazing characters. They are a 'point and click' army. I find that I would have to specifically tailor a list to beat them, so an all comers list would be difficult

 

[Pinktaco]

Personally I like to play at 2500pts oppose to 2000 since I found 2000pts to be an odd middle ground. At 2500pts you can field both an oldblood and a slann.

Anyway WOC a super hard to beat without the proper list. He'll often go first and it'll appear as if he can move up the board fast, but it's an illusion:

Chariots can't march so M6-7.
Warriors are only M4.
Skullcrushers and knights are as fast as our riders.
Flyers are obviously fast.

However it highly depends on your deployment. With chaos you want to avoid close combat, meaning that you'll have to deploy as far back as possible. It'll give you a little extra money room.

Chaos are not good at everything. They are super specialized in close combat and that's it. They have on piece of artillery and that's it. Their magic is fine, but nothing amazing. The nurgle lore attribute is great alright, but that doesn't make their actual casting abilities better. Another issue is that your opponent have put all his egg in one basket- the prince. What happens when that thing dies? No more magic. That's a problem since he'll want to be in close combat. At 2000pts he can't both be god tier pimped and be a lvl 4 mage. He can still be pretty damn nasty though.

Also, what were your list? Your all comers might be different from other's. If you've included regular saurus warriors against Woc you've already made your first mistake.
You'll want to field skinks. Lots of skirmishers. Redirect those frenzy skullcrushers.

Focus on priority target(s) and redirect everything else. His warriors and chariots will arrive later so deal with other things first. I find wandering deliberation to be interesting here: searing doom, shems burning gaze and spirit leech can all do a number on the prince.

Also using stegs with horns and piranha blade isn't cheesy. I mean yes you can take out 3 wounds in one go if you're lucky, but it's not a fail safe strategy. I'd also argue that having a great weapon will overall be better on a single oldblood than the piranha blade combo. If you have a bus with several characters it's something else.

 

[Putzfrau]

Use lore of death.


Piranha blade doesn't work on magic. Similar items have been faq'd in the past. You only get the bonus when striking with the item. That's how special weapons are. For the some reason using sword of might doesn't give your impact hits higher strength. It's not cheesy, it's cheating.

How much of your core is skinks?


For reference on the piranha blade :

"Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give that bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4) A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in close combat. When a weapon does not say when the characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking, or being struck, in close combat."

Using multi wounds on spells would make me pack up my things faster than bringing the hardest army on the planet.

Either way it's irrelevant. The rules for multiple wounds in the BrB specifies "attacks" and the arp rule specifies "close combat attacks".

We're trying to help the OP beat a tough list not encourage him to cheat.

My advice is to not get discouraged and not to refuse to play him. Use a heavily skink based army and play the "point denial while I death snipe your characters" game. Lizardmen can win any match up if played well, assuming you're using the right army build. There is a reason WoC doesn't really crush tournaments anymore.

You want to get his DP to land in a position where he is surrounded by skinks. If he doesn't it means you're keeping him to the outside and that's good. Lore of metal is also good.

We will have to see your list tho. I noticed you're using high magic. That's part of your problem.

 

[NexS1]

Use lore of death.


Piranha blade doesn't work on magic. Similar items have been faq'd in the past. You only get the bonus when striking with the item. That's how special weapons are. For the some reason using sword of might doesn't give your impact hits higher strength. It's not cheesy, it's cheating.

How much of your core is skinks?


For reference on the piranha blade :

"Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give that bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4) A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in close combat. When a weapon does not say when the characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking, or being struck, in close combat."

Using multi wounds on spells would make me pack up my things faster than bringing the hardest army on the planet.

The Item says that it gives the weilder the special rules. It does not state that "attacks made by this weapon" or any other variation. I imagine it would be an obvious and deliberate misinterperation of the intention, but it's in the book.
I've seen slaughtermasters take magic armour (the Ogre Kingdoms book was accidentally released with a Slaughtermaster being able to take an iron fist, meaning they could then take magic armour.) so why can't we exploit wordings like anyone else?

 

[Putzfrau]

Use lore of death.


Piranha blade doesn't work on magic. Similar items have been faq'd in the past. You only get the bonus when striking with the item. That's how special weapons are. For the some reason using sword of might doesn't give your impact hits higher strength. It's not cheesy, it's cheating.

How much of your core is skinks?


For reference on the piranha blade :

"Q: Does a weapon that gives a bonus to a characteristic only give that bonus when being used to attack a model?(p4) A: Most weapons, including magic weapons, state when the bonus is given. For example, a model with the Fencer’s Blades will always have Weapon Skill 10 whilst a model with a great weapon will only have +2 Strength when striking an enemy in close combat. When a weapon does not say when the characteristic bonus applies, then it only applies when striking, or being struck, in close combat."

Using multi wounds on spells would make me pack up my things faster than bringing the hardest army on the planet.

The Item says that it gives the weilder the special rules. It does not state that "attacks made by this weapon" or any other variation. I imagine it would be an obvious and deliberate misinterperation of the intention, but it's in the book.
I've seen slaughtermasters take magic armour (the Ogre Kingdoms book was accidentally released with a Slaughtermaster being able to take an iron fist, meaning they could then take magic armour.) so why can't we exploit wordings like anyone else?

The wording of the multiple wounds special rule says specifically "attacks made" and spells aren't attacks.

It's not an exploit, weapons simply don't work that way unless stated.

It's why you don't get strength bonuses to your fireballs or impact hits.

Also "wielder". Last I checked a slann casting spells isn't doing it while wielding a sword. He's the "bearer" of the sword but he would "wield" the sword only when making close combat attacks.

As I said, it's not an exploit the wording of the relevant rules are very clear. It is cheating, plain and simple.


Your given example is literally an entirely different situation and not at all relatable.

Regardless , this doesn't help the Op. If you'd like to continue the discussion I will gladly, in another thread. However, the issue has been brought up numerous times and the result has been the same every time.

 

[GCPD]

[quote="Putzfrau"There is a reason WoC doesn't really crush tournaments anymore.[/quote]

I don't think that's because of Lizardmen though - but more likely that other armies (notably Elves, also Empire) can do very well against WoC. The mirror match also tends to distort things. Still, at the event I attended at the weekend, 12/70 were WoC.

 

[GhostWarrior]

...
Also, what were your list? Your all comers might be different from other's...

This. Whilst being a combat army, you will find that competitive WoC lists generally have 1 significant drawback in combat - they tend to mostly have strength 5 or less.

With the exception of the Daemon Prince (St6), BSB (usually 6-7 whilst mounted on Daemonic Steed), Chimeras (6), and the Juggernauts on the charge (6), everything else is in the 4-5 strength region. I understand that this doesn't seem like much of an advantage off the bat, but when you combine that with the fact that they generally don't take lores that can boost their strength, and they have usually 1 spell at most that can debuff your toughness, you'll find that our Cowboys and Oldbloods can match-up with most anything they can bring very well. Also don't forget that these models (Chimera excepted) generally only have about 4-5 attacks each.

My point is - our best Cowboy builds match-up extremely well versus the army you just mentioned. I absolutely agree that the typical Slann-focused army has trouble against the list you've shown, since it has trouble fitting in more than 1-2 cowboys (especially @ 2k). The Cowboy's can take on everything except the Warrior unit, due to its static resolution.

That's the other item about a list like this - it lacks in static resolution. It can be hard to make that matter, due to the damage it kicks out. But tactics - flanking, matchups, static res of your own, double flees, redirection, all give you a chance vs. everything but the DP. The DP you have to kill - and that's hard.

You have to set it up so that the cowboy(s) are able to engage him. Since he's faster, that's hard. If nothing else, be putting pressure on the rest of his army so that the Prince has to risk engaging.

I personally have been playtesting a combat-focused force of Lizards that is meant for all-comers (though I'm generally practicing for 2500-3k). At this point in time, it has no concerns with WoC. It still requires skill and luck - but the pressure is heavily on the opponent an how that opponent utilizes his DP. My build would have a tougher time @2k, just because I couldn't fully kit my 2 OB's - but I still think I'd have a good shot.

Anyway, just my experiences. His list isn't broken - it's just 'hard'.

 

[Ixt]

Also, what were your list? Your all comers might be different from other's. If you've included regular saurus warriors against Woc you've already made your first mistake.
You'll want to field skinks. Lots of skirmishers. Redirect those frenzy skullcrushers.

Yeah, I was setting up a redirect on the first turn but he rolled like a 19" (I was 18" away) charge and pretty much ruined my plans. Slew the Skirms, overran into my cohort right at my lines.

I fielded a High Magic LM Slann gen/bsb, a cheapo quango chief, a skink priest with heavens, 4 razordons, bastiladon w/ solar enginge, 26 temple guard, 4 squads skirmishers w/ jav shield, 16 skrox w/ musician & standard + pois attacks. No Saurus at all aside from the TG, who did fairly well.

It hasn't really failed me before... it allows me to be really versatile, and a lot of people (for some reason) neglect the razordons and wind up losing scores of units because of them. Plus, they're a nice target for turbo'd HoG. They become devastating with that.

"Razordons are getting... 28 shots this turn... BS 5 S4.."
"Wait WHAT"

I suppose I'll switch some stuff around to field a cowboy vet. Would you guys say 1 or 2 cowboys are preferable for all-comers?

Focus on priority target(s) and redirect everything else. His warriors and chariots will arrive later so deal with other things first. I find wandering deliberation to be interesting here: searing doom, shems burning gaze and spirit leech can all do a number on the prince.

Yeah, I'll try WD next time.

Also using stegs with horns and piranha blade isn't cheesy. I mean yes you can take out 3 wounds in one go if you're lucky, but it's not a fail safe strategy. I'd also argue that having a great weapon will overall be better on a single oldblood than the piranha blade combo. If you have a bus with several characters it's something else.

Oh, no: I use Sharpened Horns all the time. I've just never heard of the Piranha Blade rule being applied to all wounds put out by the model.

Thank you for the advice, Pinktaco.

 

[Ixt]

...
Also, what were your list? Your all comers might be different from other's...

This. Whilst being a combat army, you will find that competitive WoC lists generally have 1 significant drawback in combat - they tend to mostly have strength 5 or less.

With the exception of the Daemon Prince (St6), BSB (usually 6-7 whilst mounted on Daemonic Steed), Chimeras (6), and the Juggernauts on the charge (6), everything else is in the 4-5 strength region. I understand that this doesn't seem like much of an advantage off the bat, but when you combine that with the fact that they generally don't take lores that can boost their strength, and they have usually 1 spell at most that can debuff your toughness, you'll find that our Cowboys and Oldbloods can match-up with most anything they can bring very well. Also don't forget that these models (Chimera excepted) generally only have about 4-5 attacks each.

My point is - our best Cowboy builds match-up extremely well versus the army you just mentioned. I absolutely agree that the typical Slann-focused army has trouble against the list you've shown, since it has trouble fitting in more than 1-2 cowboys (especially @ 2k). The Cowboy's can take on everything except the Warrior unit, due to its static resolution.

That's the other item about a list like this - it lacks in static resolution. It can be hard to make that matter, due to the damage it kicks out. But tactics - flanking, matchups, static res of your own, double flees, redirection, all give you a chance vs. everything but the DP. The DP you have to kill - and that's hard.

You have to set it up so that the cowboy(s) are able to engage him. Since he's faster, that's hard. If nothing else, be putting pressure on the rest of his army so that the Prince has to risk engaging.

I personally have been playtesting a combat-focused force of Lizards that is meant for all-comers (though I'm generally practicing for 2500-3k). At this point in time, it has no concerns with WoC. It still requires skill and luck - but the pressure is heavily on the opponent an how that opponent utilizes his DP. My build would have a tougher time @2k, just because I couldn't fully kit my 2 OB's - but I still think I'd have a good shot.

Anyway, just my experiences. His list isn't broken - it's just 'hard'.

All good tips - thanks much. ^_^ I'll have to give these cowboys a try then.

 

[Ixt]

Oh, yeah, before I forget...

He talked about fielding a Hellcannon next game. How do we deal with those?

I thought it'd be easy as, "Prime Spirit Leech target!" but now I'm reading that the cannon can use the crew's Leadership (wtf?).

I guess I'll have to ditch my all-comers or maybe siphon out some TG for a cowboy, but do you guys have any thoughts on putting the cannon down?

 

[GhostWarrior]

I wouldn't worry too much about the shooting ability of the Hellcannon. It can kill stuff, for sure - but a decent number of things have to go right for it to be successful.

If really worried about it - you can cast Iceshard Blizzard at it. Each successful casting at the machine requires that it roll a 4+ to fire in your opponents next turn. This just adds another layer to require it to be successful.

The bigger concern with the Hellcannon is if it gets into combat and ties something of yours up - it's another Unbreakable, and can probably tie up most things you'll bring for a majority of the game.

 

[Putzfrau]

I'd take 3 scar vet cowboys. You can easily fit that in at 2000 points. Each one comes to about 150 points, give or take.

There are a lot of good item loadouts. 1+ saves/ward is key. One with the 2+ ward would help a ton against the hellcannon especially if you play closed lists.

Great weapons on all of them. They should be able to fight just about anything in his army.

Lizardmen honestly have 2 options for dealing with most things. Cowboys and skinks. If skinks dont solve the problem cowboys probably will, or vice versa

 

[Ixt]

Lizardmen honestly have 2 options for dealing with most things. Cowboys and skinks. If skinks dont solve the problem cowboys probably will, or vice versa

Interesting philosophy... I'll do my best to incorporate that into an all-comers list, and hopefully have it up tonight.

 

[JWK47]

Just cloud it up and use Lore of Death and Tettoeko while playing standard 2400 point games as opposed to 2000 where his army isn't perfectly scaled. Problem solved. There's no reason to tailor a list to beat him, the same skink cloud (or variation) that deals with everything else can beat WoC reliably.

WoC aren't winning events anymore because HE and DE completely ruin them.

 

[sillyduck123]

I can see the frustration your suffering at the hands of this list

WoC are close combat orientated. Do something to counter this, i'd recommend you use skirmishers to draw them off your melee units or high value models.

and about the piranha blade. I'd pick it up
you have to play on your terms if you want to win

 

[Mordechai]

In my experience against this power builds, a Slaan with metal, a bastiladon and an engine of the gods, will brake him...

Basicaly, the signature for metal can end with the juggers in one or two turns, with a little luck the bastiladon will do the rest... the engine will kill his dogs units easy and maybe do some damage on the rest...

The skinks, a lot of them can take care of the chimera... and the stegs will finish the jobs...

I use 2 stegs in this case, an engine and a normal (with the bolt thrower), both with d3 wounds on impact hits.

A large block of saurus (30-35) to take care of the game in the end.

It´s hard, I know, but with a little concentration and tatics, you will do fine.

Best regards, sorry for my bad english.

Marcos