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8th Ed. lizardmen like a beast

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Skink

pendrell

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hey guys I am pondering on the usefulness of lore of beast in the lizardmen army. It seems to me that slann-beast can be quite powerfull for the following reasons:
- it has a kickass signature spell
- it has a cannonball spell in the form of amber spear which is something lizardmen miss in the book. Gives the possibility to single shot a monster or something with several wounds/high armour save.
- it synergise very well with cowboys making them absolutely insane: +3 thoughness or +3 strenght +3 (predatory fighter) attacks.
- it can interfere with the opponent movement with curse of anraheir. Prevents charges/marches unless the opponent is willing to give up a third of his units. With additional -1 to hit. Here I am not sure how this spell works in relation to flyers: if a flyers flyes 10 inches on open ground does it have to take the dangerous terrain test? and if it flyes 20?

All these things seem pretty good to me, I am surprised that it is so underplayed. The flock of doom and transformation will never work but you can always swap them for the awsome signature if you roll them. Another thing that I was considering is whether this lore synergise well with ethereal slann. It can buff the slann to T7 or give the enemy -1 to hit him or give the slann 4 attacks at S6. With those buffs the slann may be able to withstand something like a frost phoenix which has magical attacks and negates ethereal. What do you think?
 
I'm sure most of us are are quite happy skink priest have access to beast now. :smug:
 
Everyone loves to hate Flock of Doom! *sigh* Remember: Though it's not very powerful, it can devastate light units (typically on a 4+). I'll keep it just to blow up redirectors/skirmishers/light cav. A lv 2 Priest can one-die it, freeing up your other shooting/spells from being wasted on these pests.

Anyway, Curse of Anraheir does not apply to open board... Page 116 Open Ground: “Open terrain is the most prevalent type of terrain and thus the ‘default’ setting - any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground. All the rules as presented thus far assume that your game is being players on open terrain – grassy fields, sandy flats, sun-parched earth and so on. It therefore doesn't affect the game, and we dont need to provide any further detail.” Still, it's a good spell.

I don't think that the Slann is allowed to transform... something about not being on foot? Could be wrong.

Otherwise, yeah, the Slann handles Wyssan's/Amber/Pann's/Horros pretty well! I prefer having him cast them via High Magic attribute, rather than the Priest just so I can save on power dice.
 
Ixt said:
Everyone loves to hate Flock of Doom! *sigh* Remember: Though it's not very powerful, it can devastate light units (typically on a 4+). I'll keep it just to blow up redirectors/skirmishers/light cav. A lv 2 Priest can one-die it, freeing up your other shooting/spells from being wasted on these pests.

Anyway, Curse of Anraheir does not apply to open board... Page 116 Open Ground: “Open terrain is the most prevalent type of terrain and thus the ‘default’ setting - any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground. All the rules as presented thus far assume that your game is being players on open terrain – grassy fields, sandy flats, sun-parched earth and so on. It therefore doesn't affect the game, and we dont need to provide any further detail.” Still, it's a good spell.

I don't think that the Slann is allowed to transform... something about not being on foot? Could be wrong.

Otherwise, yeah, the Slann handles Wyssan's/Amber/Pann's/Horros pretty well! I prefer having him cast them via High Magic attribute, rather than the Priest just so I can save on power dice.
Click to expand...


Allow me to paraphrase. "Open terrain" mentioned more times, than the one time it says "open ground", i beg to differ, i really do, i believe the exact same statement proves it is open terrain, and hence, terrain, it is just so, that open terrain, should be treated as open ground. It also states "any >terrain< not specifically classed as something else." from that we know it IS terrain.
 
I've used a Beast council once and it went pretty well.

Naked slann w/ beast
lvl2 priest w/ beast
lvl2 priest w/ beast

ASF Oldblood
Initiative 10 Scarvet BSB

When you have many wizards you can manipulate where a spell go.

So I started with lvl 2 skink priest. Who took Amber spear & Panns. Then I trade Panns for Wyssans. <--- Why i kept Amber Spear? Because the priest is expendable, so i can 6 dice the spell without any risk. Not the same on TG Slann.
Then rolled with Slann who took Curse, Savage Beast, Kadon and Panns. I trade Kadon for Wyssans.
then the last skink was only left with Kadon & Flock of doom, who was traded for Wyssans.

That game was call on turn 2. When a Boosted Savage beast annihilated in one go 700 points of WoC.

Also you can do the same for 355 points with 3 skink lvl 3 priest with scroll & cube. So you can bring two or three oldbloods to get full benefit of Beast. Yes I love Oldbloods the most. for 180 poiints you get M7 stupid (who is a benefit thanks to cold blooded) 5 WS 6 S7 Attacks with 3 wounds and 1+ AS.

Scarvets are awesome, but i really miss that extra wound and weapon skill who will give you the edge. I face WoC the most and its not the same hitting on 3's than 4's (before Nurgle applies)

So yes, best councils are pretty damn good, stacks wonders with EoTG.
 
VampTeddy said:
Allow me to paraphrase. "Open terrain" mentioned more times, than the one time it says "open ground", i beg to differ, i really do, i believe the exact same statement proves it is open terrain, and hence, terrain, it is just so, that open terrain, should be treated as open ground. It also states "any >terrain< not specifically classed as something else." from that we know it IS terrain.
Click to expand...

We know that 'open ground' is terrain/we are classifying it as 'terrain'?

Orcs & Goblins FAQ,
"Q: If a Night Goblin unit is behind an obstacle or in a building or other piece of terrain, what happens to any Fanatics released? (p53)
A: If the Fanatic is released from a point of the unit that is outside the terrain then it will move as normal. If the point of the unit is released from inside the terrain then it will be destroyed before it gets a chance to move."

So Night Goblins are immediately destroyed whenever activated, as they count as being released within terrain? o.0
 
Curse of Aranheir is triggered when unit march, charge or flees. As it is worded that any kind of terrain is treated like dangerous. This includes open field.

Fanatics are worded differently.
 
If you're calling the open board 'terrain,' then the entire game is taking place 'with/in terrain.' By extension, the board is 'a piece of terrain.'

Therefore, Night Goblin Fanatics are unusable. If they're activated in terrain, they're destroyed.

When it comes time to place terrain, does the board count as a piece? Who has the burden of placing it? Does it count against the terrain allowance for its owning player?

I dunno - play it how you will, I guess.
 
Ixt said:
Anyway, Curse of Anraheir does not apply to open board... Page 116 Open Ground: “Open terrain is the most prevalent type of terrain and thus the ‘default’ setting - any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground. All the rules as presented thus far assume that your game is being players on open terrain – grassy fields, sandy flats, sun-parched earth and so on. It therefore doesn't affect the game, and we dont need to provide any further detail.” Still, it's a good spell.
Click to expand...



The way I read it:
- Open ground is a terrain
- Open ground does not normally affect anything….unless a spell tells you that it does!

A couple of questions:
- If you target a cowboy with the buffs the lore attribute works, right?
- Sorry if I ask again but I am curious about flyers and dangerous terrain: if you fly 10 or 20 inches into or from a dangerous terrain, will you need to take the test? I think this is very interesting because it could be a way to deal with nasty flyers like frost phoenix and the like, especially if you are running a solo ethereal slann.
I know that we can run level2 priests on beast but the +4 to cast vr. +2 to cast is a big difference in my opinion. And I want to maximize the chances to get both the cannon ball spell, the dangerous terrain one and the cowboy buffs
 
"Does not affect the game" reads significantly different than "does not affect the game, unless otherwise stated."

It could go either way, but it sounds to me like it's meant to work on pieces of terrain, and not open ground.

Again - Night Goblin Fanatics?

Anyway, Cowboys have their type changed to Cavalry... so, yes.
 
I think the main issue here is transformation is basically a no-go for the slann.
Wyssans can be had by priests anyway.
The character buff spells basically require you to build around them.
Flock of doom is useless.
Curse is alright.
Amber spear is great.

I think if maybe wyssans wildform had the opposite effect on opponents it would be great.
Flock of doom should've been at higher strenght. Like D6 S4 being able to be boosted to 2D6 S4.

That would make it just a little bit more viable. Not that it isn't viable at all, but if you group up your characters your opponents will see it coming and just dispel the one spell you want.

Obviously though one could give the +2A sword to an OB and unleash him with the +3S/A spell for a total of 10 attacks + PF (can we do that to go above 10 attacks?) at S8. Could be fun, but again we risk gimping our lord if he doesn't get it off.
 
Ixt, I had written up a relatively lengthy response in support of your stand on the rule. Before I posted, I figured, why not look at what other forums have to say? Sounds like this is a pretty hot topic. I can honestly say I just went from 100% in your camp to, well, I'm not sure what. I honestly think that it's just a mistake, but seeing as GW just came out with their updated FAQ today and I couldn't find any mention of it, I wonder if it's a legitimate spell. Can anyone else see anything in the new FAQ?

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer/WARHAMMER_RULEBOOKv1.9.pdf
 
If you don't threat open terrain as.. terrain, it's 100% a useless spell.
 
Ixt said:
VampTeddy said:
Allow me to paraphrase. "Open terrain" mentioned more times, than the one time it says "open ground", i beg to differ, i really do, i believe the exact same statement proves it is open terrain, and hence, terrain, it is just so, that open terrain, should be treated as open ground. It also states "any >terrain< not specifically classed as something else." from that we know it IS terrain.
Click to expand...

We know that 'open ground' is terrain/we are classifying it as 'terrain'?

Orcs & Goblins FAQ,
"Q: If a Night Goblin unit is behind an obstacle or in a building or other piece of terrain, what happens to any Fanatics released? (p53)
A: If the Fanatic is released from a point of the unit that is outside the terrain then it will move as normal. If the point of the unit is released from inside the terrain then it will be destroyed before it gets a chance to move."

So Night Goblins are immediately destroyed whenever activated, as they count as being released within terrain? o.0
Click to expand...

I believe you're not understanding the argument / part of the BRB you yourself brought forth.

It asks us to treat - TREAT - open terrain as open ground. That does not mean it is open ground, since it is still open terrain, and not open ground.

I don't believe this goes any way at all, i simply believe (but you probably believe the same of me), that you're overreading the section of the BRB.


“Open terrain is the most prevalent type of terrain and thus the ‘default’ setting - any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground."

So, the night goblin treats it as open terrain, but it is, as mentioned several times, terrain. Sinde "any terrain" etc. et. etc. is treated as open ground. Now notice how it never says "is open ground", but merely that it is "treated" as open ground. It is very clear in the wording of the exact page you found, how terrain works, and also very clear from the self-same, that the night goblin fanatics, would treat "open terrain", as "open ground" - doesn't not make it terrain, just makes it so, that they treat it differently.
 
Ixt said:
"Does not affect the game" reads significantly different than "does not affect the game, unless otherwise stated."

It could go either way, but it sounds to me like it's meant to work on pieces of terrain, and not open ground.

Again - Night Goblin Fanatics?
Click to expand...

You are starting to sound like a broken record.

"open terrain" have nothing attached to it. Everything is terrain, one way or another. Fanatics doesn't have the same wording. Also, if you read the spell, it specfically excludes Impassable Terrain. If it also excluded open terrain, one would think they'd clarify that as well.

The open ground section even says it is threated as terrain, and that it doesn't affect the game.

But curse of anraheir specifies that ALL terrain is threated as dangerous, which must include open terrain.

If this isn't clearcut, nothing is. The word "all" is as inclusive as they come, and claiming it doesn't include something, despite no indications that it shouldn't, is rulesbending, in my opinion at least.
 
The more I think of it the more the curse of anraheir is over powered. First, it messes up with the opponent movement phase which I believe it to be the most powerful thing in warhammer. Second, it has utility at all stages of the game from turn 1 to 6. It is just so versatile. Early turns you prevent flyers to jump behind your lines or the big blocks of infantry to march. Once you get in combat it is a -1 to hit which will help quite a lot. This spell is especially a hard counter to heavy cavalry since they HAVE to charge. It would put them in an akward position in which either they loose a third of their unit and get a -1 to hit charging or they don't charge and they get counter charged next turn loosing the strenght bonus. Either way it is so bad for them. Big infantry blocks are gonna get stuck as well, I can't think of a situation where this spell would be mediocre.
The only situation where this spell does't shine is against archers because they probably would't move anyway. But hey we give them a -1 to hit as well! pretty cool....
 
Curse is really big.

Cast it on their main block and see how his center just move but not march. As no one would leave their main block behind and go ahead with their supports. And if they do... punish'em !
 
I wouldn't want to use Beasts on a Slann, Priests can get Wyssans plus characters can be buffed from other lores too. I'll just hex the opponent to get the effect of a buff, Heavens Shadow and Death all do that brilliantly
 
Stuntyogre said:
I wouldn't want to use Beasts on a Slann, Priests can get Wyssans plus characters can be buffed from other lores too. I'll just hex the opponent to get the effect of a buff, Heavens Shadow and Death all do that brilliantly
Click to expand...

I think that it all depends on what are the hitters of your list. If you play 100% skink core, and you rely on cowboys to do the fighting then beast becomes so much better in turning the combat on your favor than any of the other lores.
 
SilverFaith said:
Everything is terrain, one way or another.
Click to expand...

You say that the Fanatics' wording is different, but the wording simply says, 'pieces of terrain.'

If you're calling open ground 'terrain,' then isn't it essentially a large 'piece of terrain' (or, rather, many pieces)? Isn't a 'slice of pizza' still 'pizza'? o.0

I don't see a solid case either way. I choose not to apply the spell to all open ground, and it still works pretty well as utility. If somebody wanted to use it that way on me, that's cool too I guess. That's the relief: if your opponent agrees, then you can play it however you want.


SilverFaith said:
The word "all" is as inclusive as they come, and claiming it doesn't include something, despite no indications that it shouldn't, is rulesbending, in my opinion at least.
Click to expand...
"Does not affect the game" is pretty clear-cut, in my opinion. To me, that takes precedence.
 
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