7th Ed. Lizardmen are overpowered?

[Revered_Guardian]

I can't stop thinking about it anymore, everyone I play tells me that lizardmen are overpowered...

my brother complains that my saurus can kill his GOBLINS and that my stegadon can kill 10 black orcs on the charge...

A tomb-Kings player complains that my cold-ones are overpowered, along with everything else...

A skaven player repeatedly speaks of temple guard and saurus being too strong for their cost.....

I played a game against this player and in the end of the game had nothing but my general left, everything was ripped apart by his magic and shooting (and he takes a fairly soft list with that)

The orc player (mind you he is 11) Only plays with me if he has a point advantage.........and constantly complains about overpowerdness and quits at the first sign of trouble....

he once quit when his dwarf allies cannon didn't kill the stegadon because he kept rolling 1's to wound....and said lizardmen were overpowered again...

Why am I being tortured like this? It's not like my list is hard or anything...it consists of 1 eotg, a scar-vet on cold one, 5 cold ones with huanchi, 15 saurus w spears, 10 temple guard, 30 skink skirmishers and 10 skinks (1500)

 

[Eternity_Warden]

The O&G opponent should simply be glad you don't use any salamanders in that army!

 

[thesecondman]

You are being tortured because you are playing young, inexperienced or immature players. Not everyone else it like that. If you want to play against real people, go to a tournament.

Lizardmen are not overpowered, but they are very good.

If you were going to seperate all warhammer fantasy armies into "tiers" of "goodness", then lizardmen would probably be "second tier". This makes them at the moment probably the third or fourth best army around at the moment (NB- NOT ALL 7TH EDITION ARMY BOOKS ARE OUT YET! -- important point).

Daemons and Vampire Counts are just better. Dark Elves might be.

Saurus warriors, looking at their points cost and statistics, are basically as good as your going to get for an infantry unit (with spears) Yes, they are bordering on overpowered, but movement 4", charge/march 8" units can only be so overpowered. This is because movement is really really important in warhammer.

My advice - Tell your opponents to either harden up, stop playing you, or meta their army against yours.
And dude, find some mature gamers and/or go to some tourneys.

If you also want some advice on your army (i can't help myself), you might wanna do the following-
-Drop the temple guard for saurus with spears
--Make both (you will have 2 now) units of saurus with spears and full command 18 strong (ranked 6x3)
---Drop the skink cohorts. use points on the saurus or more skirmishers
----Get a razordon or a salamander if you can afford it. (Salamander if you fight block unit armies a lot, razordons if you fight small units, skirmishers and fast cavalry armies).
-----Consider dropping non necessary magic items for the changes above. Take only the absolute necessities.

 

[strewart]

Well, LM are most certainly not overpowered. That is the baseline. There is nothing at all that is insane, it looks like your opponents are suffering from new army syndrome. Every new army is called overpowered until people learn how to deal with them. VC were seen as the most insane thing around until people learned the tactics how to beat them and what their weaknesses are, they are still a very powerful army mind you but not as complained about. Hell even my High Elves for the first time in their history faced cries of cheese about always being able to strike first and getting extra special slots, now they are a slightly above average army at best.

This could backfire, and it somewhat depends on how well you can adapt to new armies. When they complain, offer to let them switch armies with your for a battle and see how things go. I did this with my old Sylvanians when they never stopped winning, and even handed my opponent a powerful list and a full tactica on the army that I had written, and proceeded to beat my beautiful army into the dirt with ogres. You will have the advantage because you know the weaknesses of your army and where to target, and it will show them that the LM are beatable.

I'm afraid there isn't a whole lot more you can do. They will either go back to the drawing board, hit some forums and figure out how to deal with your army better, or keep whining and not. It should settle down soon enough.

 

[Revered_Guardian]

The skaven player is waiting till 7th to buy anything else, but the rest of us are moving towards 2k (surprisingly, the orc is already there....but is now gonna get a 30 strong unit of black orcs, a chariot and 2 snotling pumps, but will have to change his list)

The temple guard are there at the moment because in 2k they will be protecting my slaan, and this is what I expect the 2k list 2 look like, just need to buy the slaan, sally and terries

slaan-, cupped hands, focused rumination, focus of mystery-bsb
395 pts

Scar-vet- cold one, lgth armour, burning blade of chotec, mirror shield-160 pts

skik priest-EOTG, lvl 2, , diadem-440

15 saurus w spears musician and bearer-198

10 skink skirmishers-70

10 skink skirmishers-70

16 temple guard banner, musician-277

5 cold ones w banner-huanchi's totem-220

3 terradons-90pts

Salamander extra handler

2000

 

[Barotok]

Forgive me for this comment but;
If the 11yr old can not handle loosing he shouldn't be playing a game like warhammer. Have you suggested Yu'Gi'Oh (however it's spelled) or perhaps X-Box?

Now, as far as being over powered goes. I've never seen or experienced much of the "LM are OP" claims as my gaiming group seems to pound me into bits every time I play game (damn the die gods). I've talked with players at other hobby shops and when I'm asked what army I play, I've gotten a wide range of reactions. A good number have been along the lines of "Wow, those guys are really powerful!", but for the most part, my view of the gaming community is that they are fairly well balanced. thesecondman brings up an excellent point in that they are ranked as a T2 army right now for tournaments. With not all of the 7th edition books released, this makes me think that LM will probably end up being about average, or slightly above when it's all said and done.

I've found that frequently people who make claims that "this army is OP" or "that list is OP" or "that unit is OP" and can't stop crying about how cheesy everything is are frequently negligent of the game's rules, have no understanding of their army or its mechanics, follow deviations from strategy based on a one time experience with some fantastic die rolls and roll their emotional mood for the turn based on the die rolls made for that turn.

Hope I'm not coming across as too harsh.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Forgive me for this comment but;
If the 11yr old can not handle loosing he shouldn't be playing a game like warhammer. Have you suggested Yu'Gi'Oh (however it's spelled) or perhaps X-Box?

Lol, this is so good! Sigged, if you don't mind.

Back OT
I've found (through my limited experience) and as you've already said, LM get smashed at range, the M or 4 and Save of 4+ means that anything S4, armour piercing, or both will cut them down in a snap. I wholey agree that LM are not OP, just in a good position right now.

 

[kroxigor01]

Tell the TK play to buy a Skullapult, or a King with Destroyer of Eternaties. That will kill a fair few saurus cav.

The skaven player should realise that for the cost of your 'undercosted' Saurus unit he can get a block of 20 slaves and a block of 25 clanrats with FC. A bait and flee later and his rats kill the Saurus for only the lose of 20 slaves.

The O&G player has more of a leg to stand on. O&G are definitely one of the bottom 3 armies (hanging out with BoC and OK). O&G have nothing to really counter terror causers, skirmish tactics (terradons can marchblock the whole army forever) or elite infantry (Saurus get 4 times the attacks/frontage that Orcs do, but still have the same save!).

 

[lupercal]

have to agree with kroxigar01 the skaven are potentially one of the most powerful armies out there even without a new book they can field a really scary army with all those guns and extra dice from warpstones for casting they can really bring a lot of firepower to bear and slaves are really cheap

as for the O@G they have a much harder time making a winning list but like all armies they have their advantages they can bring a lot of artillery to bear and a lot of troops and we can't forget fanatics plus the waaagh is always bad for getting charged but all in all i think their shooty lists are the worst they don't hit well but they can throw so much downrange that they don't need to hit that often kinda similar to a skaven shooty army just not as effective

 

[Revered_Guardian]

and fanatics.....the bouncing balls of terror that at best I have to lose some skinks too, and at worst ive lost all my cold ones to them....they are so freakin crazy! (Once he missed with all of them....and then they crashed through his own units )

 

[Krakkakoldi]

I was a tournament player for around a decade, and enjoyed reasonable VP oriented success & even more fun. Quite frankly, the reason I stopped playing tournaments for WHFB (Blood Bowl being my tourney game now) was the rise in Australasia of the Cult of Composition.

I basically reached saturation from all the crocodile tears shed by players screaming "cheese" when beaten, and giving great composition scores only if they had won the game.

If it's in the relevant book, it's legal. If people don't like that, they should just take up chess (I believe that is a wargame with very balanced army lists & terrain).

It's not life or death. It's pretty pewter & plastic toy soldiers being subjected to the petty whims of the dice gods, with occasional contributions from the people who play them.

And if you can't find a playing environment where you can enjoy the fun of the game, move.

Just my two scales worth ...

 

[Eternity_Warden]

If people don't like that, they should just take up chess (I believe that is a wargame with very balanced army lists & terrain).

I don't know, I think the black player has a slight advantage. That game's too cheesy for me. They should roll to see who goes first.

 

[kroxigor01]

Krakkakoldi, almost all tournaments in Australia now have comp marked by a nonparticipating panel. You're no longer at the whim of a vengeful opponent (and no longer at the whim of the one genius who brings 2 Hydras and a Black Dragon and wins 'best' general).

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Are tournaments really THAT bad? I had a friend go to a tournament, he lost every game he played (though, he plays the least out of everyone i know, so it was mostly lack of experience) and he didn't see any "cheesy" lists.

 

[wappellious]

Back in May, I participated in a WFB tournament. At the time, I had never played a game with the new lizard book. Basically, I was swithcing from a very combat/shooty oriented army to a more magic and regimental based one. That army had been very sucessful, but was no longer viable with the new book. In fact, I had never used most of the units in the new army, including the Slaan or EotG.

It was my first WFB tourney. I had done some 40k and BBowl tournaments before, but everyone I was playing had a big advantage over me in terms of experience.

I ended up winning the tournament. Painting scores worked heavily in my favor, but I also benefitted from the special mission specific battle points. Later on it was revealed how people had given me comp scores that were the lowest in the tournament. Further investigation showed that they didn't even know what was in my list. I had put banners in the tiny little skink cohorts, for comp purposes, special scenarios, etc. Noone even bothered to go after them! They spent all thier energies going after an EotG or the Slaan. I even had a crazy 17 skink/1 krox unit that I set up 10 wide just for kicks. Again, nobody even touched it in three games.

No EotG survived past the 3rd turn in any game. Every player was shocked at how easy it was to take those out, but I still got blasted on comp. Obviously, I was supposed to show up with loads of saurus so that they could blow the crap out of me. The HE player had a star dragon, dragon princes, and tons of shooting, but marked me at '0' for comp.

I have built an army for a 'core competency' tournament that will take place in November. It has 5 skink krox units (16/2 in each), some terradons, two EotG, no other magic items, and a skink chief as the general. No BSB, etc. I have been playing practice games with them, and they have been doing very well, even against demons and dark elves. Of course, people have been crying cheeze already!

The hydras and steam tanks I have been going up against are not cheeze, but apparently my LD6-7 army is. I guess they figure that they should be able to crush an army of skinks, and then they get upset when that does not happen.

Sorry for the rant here. My buddy and I play brutal games against each other (he usually brings at least one, if not 2 greater demons for each game). We have definitely had some wild games! We were both suprised that there was so much vitriol for Lizardmen.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

If you have people calling cheese at you with a skink army, there is one word for you, good sir: LEGEND!

 

[wappellious]

The next cheeze cry I am waiting for is when I toss out a 4 krox/32 skink unit that stands and shoots at a big monster and wipes it out just from poison 6's.

 

[Barotok]

If you are running 2 Stegadon/EotG's in a ~2k points list, I can definitely understand you getting some negative comp scores, but definitely not as much as you described. Generally, 2 terror causing monsters will get you marked down for comp.

What I find as funny is that some tournaments don't have objective individuals who are not participating who judge the comp. What this does is gives players who get beat fair and square a chance to get back at the skilled player (or a player who happened to roll exceptionally well), by dinging their comp. Like you mentioned with the HE army, his list sounds like a very strong list which would be considered on the borderline for cheese, but couldn't stand your army.

Like the other posters responding, I say congrats on your rolling/playing. Lizardmen are still ranked as a T2 army for tourney purposes, so they are most certianly not considered overpowered by the powers that be.

I think it's also important to point out that if you do the probability calculations for cold blooded LD 6-7 armies, they fail tests close to the same percentage of the time as a leadership 8-9 army (feel free to check my numbers since its been a long time since I looked).

 

[wappellious]

These tournaments are almost always 2250 points or more. I never use any named characters, with no bound spells, very few magic items, etc. I am also spending extra points on full command for the skink units, while some of the other players are creating super cheap throw away units, etc.

What gets me the most is that the people with the 5 artillery pieces, 12 man heavy cavalry units,dragons and steam tanks etc., are the ones who complain the loudest. If I don't get the first turn, there is very little chance that the EotG's will be around for my turn 1

I use the two engines since I sculpted both from scratch, and I like how they look Speaking of which, I was getting some more painting on them last night, so I will be posting some painting WIP images tonight or tomorrow!

 

[Revered_Guardian]

I still can't believe people call us overpowered, my friend wiped the floor with me with warplightning from 2 people, and a ratling gun....and as soon as the game was over "Hey, its even better then a normal victory because I played an overpowered 7th edition armies"

And now, the new rumours I hear about skaven make daemons cry...

a 25+ spell that when cast on a unit makes them ALL turn to clanrats (except 3d6 which just die if they fail a toughness test)

VERMINLORD EEEEEK!!! As strong as a greater daemon, lvl 4 mage! GAAAAAHH!!!

Burrowing behemoth- a monster that is good and can burrow, coming up behing you and immediately getting rid of your rank bonus, running down your 200+ point units with ease....