8th Ed. LIZARD-Hammer (building on 8TH-hammer)

[Lord Kroxti]

PinkTaco, what if instead of a point reduction, we went back to the land of yesteryear and made something similar to 6th ed slann? that instead of having to have their lore chosen during list creation, that they can choose a lore before armies are deployed and rolling for spells. makes the spell disciplines less of an auto include, or perhaps also introduce a new 20 point discipline that a slann knows 5 spells in conjuction with the proposed lore picking change. makes it seem more fluffy that a slann while knowing all the lores, sees what he is up against and then decides what spells he want, I mean that's the logic behind our high magic attribute.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

perhaps also introduce a new 20 point discipline that a slann knows 5 spells in conjuction with the proposed lore picking change

There was a magic item which allowed this last edition (it costed 15 points), so it's not a far stretch.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Maybe that's a change for later, but I never understood, why the possibility for loremaster of one of the BRB lores was taken away.

 

[The Sauric Ace]

Have someone mentioned how we could make shooting ( not artillery ) more useful?
One would be to simply reduce price, obviously. Any other ideas? Or would this be enough, to start with

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Have someone mentioned how we could make shooting ( not artillery ) more useful?
One would be to simply reduce price, obviously. Any other ideas? Or would this be enough, to start with

A point reduction is probably the best first step.

Isn't one of the bigger problems with shooting the bigger units, because you will never get through that 50 man unit with BS shooting, in about 3 turns.

Maybe make bows have 2 shots.

Does it have to be that effective? I think of BS shooting more like a thing where you soften up the opponent before combat.

 

[pendrake]

Have someone mentioned how we could make shooting ( not artillery ) more useful?
One would be to simply reduce price, obviously. Any other ideas? Or would this be enough, to start with

Yes.

A point reduction is probably the best first step.

Yes.

Maybe make bows have 2 shots.

Archers with bows should have twelve shots per game, xbowmen 6 shots, blowpipers 18 shots...all three types should be able to act as flak batteries (perform an about face: shoot at flying units) ...and archers should be able to arch their fire (shoot over the heads of those in front).

Stand and Shoot is: 0-1 shots for xbows or handgunners, 1-2 shots for bows, 1-2 shots for blowpipes (being charged can reduce number of shots).

However I think all of the above ought to be implemented at WH8.6 not at WH8.1.
I also do not think jumping to 8.5 immediately is a good idea, save the numbers for nine or ten updates.

 

[n810]

This opens the possibility of an army that's 25% Swarms by points. I consider that altering 8th edition too much. And people would expect other armies to get this.

How about "Swarms can only be up to half of your core allotment"?

 

[Putzfrau]

I think theres too many changes to be implemented at once. Especially some of the more drastic BRB related ones. Changing miscasts and super spells AND cannons is too much.

There is no monstrous cavalry meta. There hasn't been for a long time. This is the elf meta. The ASF, doomlock, MSU, tons of BS shooting meta.

I'll be honest, a lot of these suggestions would put me off. I'd rather just play 8th out of the book, or 8th with some comp than play "8.1".

Slann nerf, on top of trog buff, carnosaur buff, cannon nerf, etc etc etc would be TOO much.

krox should get a regen. Rippers should go up a pip in Initiative. Carnosaurs should come with swiftstride and bloodroar base. Trogs should have d6 attacks on their poison shooting.

Thats a start for lizardmen.

Miscast+uber spells should stay the same IMO. characters should get their ward save. Cannons should scatter.

And thats a start for the BRB.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

How about "Swarms can only be up to half of your core allotment"?

Are swarms really that much of an issue? Would you actually choose to max out your core with swarms if you could?

I think theres too many changes to be implemented at once.

I'll be honest, a lot of these suggestions would put me off. I'd rather just play 8th out of the book, or 8th with some comp than play "8.1".

I think this is sort of a brainstorming stage. Just a quick generation of ideas that will later be organized, evaluated, combined, etc. I agree that all of these changes at once might overwhelm players and create a lot of resistance from the gaming community. It really comes down to how the Swedish Comp guys choose to handle it. Are they just tweaking 8th or writing the next edition? Is there intended goal to create 8.1, 8.5 or 9th edition?

It might be a good practice to release changes in waves...

1. FAQ/ERRATA update
2. Fix critical issues (cannons)
3. Tweak lesser issues
4. Implement other changes as desired to keep things fresh and new

I think our goal here should be to create a list of suggested changes/fixes which the Swedish guys can then decide to use, alter or discard.

krox should get a regen.

This would make me so happy! Even a regen save of 5+ would be epic.

 

[Pinktaco]

They're basically creating 9th edition from what I can read. I'm not sure why that would be off putting. We were supposed to get a new edition anyway.

I can understand release just a FAQ/errata for army books though.

With that said this isn't forcing anyway to do anything and regardless they'll do a beta test of their new edition. If you don't like it then tell why.

 

[Pinktaco]

Also what you're suggesting Putz is no better than the rest of us. We've been brainstorming ideas and some obviously more extreme than others. We are in no way implementing all of that into some sort of new edition. Your suggestions are all very welcomed as well.

With that said I highly disagree with regeneration for kroxigors XD

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

I think Tougness 5 would fit the Kroxigors better.
If they got a regen save, basically the rest of our army would need it, because what are the Kroxigor other than bigger (and dumber) saurus?

 

[Scalenex]

+1 to everything Nightbringer said. Except the Regeneration save on Kroxigor. That seems unnecessary from a crunch perspective and somewhat jarring from a fluff perspective.

While I am thrilled at how intelligent and civil our conversation is we seem to have people coming at things from two approaches. I don't know if it's half and half or 75/25 or what (no polls please) once we get passed the brainstorming phase (no idea when it's appropriate to cease brainstorming phase) we need to come to an agreement on the following question or this will never move forward.

Is the goal to fix the problems with 8th edition or is to goal to replace 8th edition with new core mechanics with a scope similar to the changes between 7th and 8th. There seems to be agreement that Age of Sigmar went too far with changes.

So basically the two philosophical camps are 8.1 edition and 9th edition (though the names are not universally used like this). I think we need to get on the same page because I think if we split the difference with a theoretically 8.5 it will be one of those compromises that leaves no one happy.

If we are making 8.1 I would say changing cannons rules by reducing damage or accuracy is a bad idea. If we are making 9th edition I would say NOT changing cannon rules by reducing damage or accuracy is a bad idea.

The same goes for changing the miscast trigger or miscast table.

8.1 magic would be altering the game changing spells slightly and expanding MR. 9th edition would be changing how casting and dispelling is performed and/or rewriting spell lists in their entirety.

I favor 8.1 not because it's better but because it's easier. With 8.1 we can make judgments from 8th edition games we played. With 9th edition we would need extensive play testing or it will just replace one imbalance with another..

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Aren't the Swedish comp doing a 8.1? And isn't that what we are going at? And giving them our suggestions? Or have I missed something?

All ideas are great, I just thought of them as a possible later addditions after 8.1.

Edit:

It might be that the swedish comp is going for a 9th, but if I recall correctly, they would not make the big changes to begin with, they would rather make smaller changes, so they could come out with it as fast as possible.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

+1 to everything Nightbringer said. Except the Regeneration save on Kroxigor.

Realistically, I would never make that suggestion to the Swedish comp guys. My suggestions was much less ambitious (allow them to take a musician). The Kroxigor are amongst my top 3 favorite Lizardmen units/models, so I wish they would be more competitive. However, I recognize the major backlash that would take place if we tried to give them regen or toughness 5. Still.. a lizard can dream can't he?

I don't know if it's half and half or 75/25 or what (no polls please)

I favor 8.1 not because it's better but because it's easier. With 8.1 we can make judgments from 8th edition games we played. With 9th edition we would need extensive play testing or it will just replace one imbalance with another..

I agree that a small change (8.1) at first is probably the best way to proceed. I think it is better to slowly get people on board rather than make a lot of waves and scare people off. If the Swedish comp guys can release a successful 8.1, one that is accepted and used by the community, it will grant them more "authority" to make more ambitious changes in the future.

 

[serbianwolf]

why not do both, make a suggestion for 8.1 and for 9 and send them both...

 

[Putzfrau]

Sorry if i came across as a little stick in the mudish! I wasn't trying to poo poo the brainstorming, it just seemed like a lot of the changes were rather drastic to basic mechanics in the BRB (steadfast changes, etc), and i'm always a little put off my things like that. Can't really place why.

With that said, i should have clarified my point about kroxigor. I think they should have regen instead of an armor. So no armor, just a regen.

I play against hell pits a lot and i really like the dynamic it adds.

I think a 4+ regen (instead of an AS) would make a world of difference, even with no other changes. I think lowering the points cost+making them t5 would be too much. But just doing t5 or lowering the points probably wouldn't be enough. Regen felt like a nice middle ground, but maybe my personal experience is shaping my opinion too much.


My opinion on "8.1" would honestly just be a thorough FAQ for 8th edition. I don't know if i'd make any sweeping changes other than tweaks/clarifications on major issues, and let comp handle most of the issues (a lot like now!).

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think lowering the points cost+making them t5 would be too much. But just doing t5 or lowering the points probably wouldn't be enough.

I think they would be a pretty solid unit at toughness 5 at the current points level!

Sorry if i came across as a little stick in the mudish! I wasn't trying to poo poo the brainstorming, it just seemed like a lot of the changes were rather drastic to basic mechanics in the BRB (steadfast changes, etc), and i'm always a little put off my things like that.

Having a different viewpoint is always very welcome. Your insights are appreciated. I think it's important to consider the perspectives of as many players as we can. Your caution is well advised, it's easy to go overboard when "tweaking" the rules, especially when dealing with one's own army book.

My opinion on "8.1" would honestly just be a thorough FAQ for 8th edition. I don't know if i'd make any sweeping changes other than tweaks/clarifications on major issues, and let comp handle most of the issues (a lot like now!).

That's probably the safest course of action. Starting small and going from there.

 

[Putzfrau]

Agreed on all counts! Although i really would love to see carnosaurs be the unstoppable killing machines they should be....


toughness 7 with a regen save??


that sounds fair

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Although i really would love to see carnosaurs be the unstoppable killing machines they should be....


toughness 7 with a regen save??


that sounds fair

Only if my Kroxigor can replace their ASL and initiative 1 with ASF and initiative 10!