8th Ed. Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bearers

[olderplayer]

As written in the BRB on page 94, arcane unforging cannot be use to target just the standard beear in a unit in order to take the magic banner without an FAQ confirming it. Definitely a magic standard carried by a BSB, can be taken by the spell since his magic banner belongs to him. The BRB clearly says magic standards and standards are purchsased by the unit. Traditionally, if the standard bearer falls, another model just picks up the standard and replaces it (see page 107 of the BSB as opposed to unit standard) unless the unit flees (in which case the standard is lost p. 94) and it is not clear to me whether the magic standard applies to the unit standard or the bearer (which is not destroyed with the model and attached to the unit) or the model that simply carries the banner. Page 94 of the BRB says very clearly that "Accordingly, the standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless he and the champion (if there is one) remain in the unit. This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that affects only a single model,... Another rank and file warrior is still assumed to pick up the banner."

 

[n810]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Most likely result ...

One model dies... (removed from back)
and the standard is no longer magical,
but it's a sandard none the less.

 

[rychek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

I agree with n810. The spell specifically says it "targets a single enemy model (even a character in a unit)". Page 94 of the rule book states that "...the standard bearer cannot normally be removed as a casualty unless only he and the champion (if there is one) remain in the unit. This applies even if the standard bearer is the target of an effect that affects only a single model.... Another rank and file warrior is still assumed to pick up the banner."

So, in effect, the model holding the banner takes the hit, the spell's effects are resolved (magic banner may be destroyed and model may die as well) and the banner is picked back up by a different model within the unit.

Special rules in the army books would not, IMO, fall under the category of "normal", so the AB spell rule overrides the "normal" rules in the BRB.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Yes, I actually think this one is pretty clear. The magic item is destroyed, the standard bearer is dealt a wound and "killed," but another rank and file model replaces him as normal.

 

[olderplayer]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

I'm not sold on this. issue eiither way. The BRB is prety clear that you cannot target a single model in the unit with the unit standard in order to take away the unit standard, magic or otherwise. Later in the magical standards discussion, it is pretty clear that the unit buys the standard, not the model. The standard is purchased by the unit but just happens to be carried by a rank and file model that becomes the standard bearer. This is distinguishable from a champion that is a fixed model in the unit and carries a magic item and can be separately targetted and killed. Basically, you are targetting a rank and file model that is in the front rank because it carries the banner at that moment but the banner is not "attached" to that model. If the standard is owned by the unit and magical standard is attached to the standard, as the BRB seems to imply, then only a spell targetting the unit and able to take a magical item in the unit would be effective. Of course, the work around is to say that targetting a rank and file mofel is targetting a unit and allows one to take the magic banner by that means.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

The BRB is prety clear that you cannot target a single model in the unit with the unit standard in order to take away the unit standard, magic or otherwise.

No, the BRB says a standard bearer can't "normally" be singled out, but it specifically mentions that effects that target a "single model" in a unit can still target him.

The BRB clearly says magic standards and standards are purchsased by the unit.

Actually, the BRB explicitly states that magic standards are wielded by the unit's standard bearer, and also that he is a legal target for spells that target a "single model in a unit." It lists Sniper as an example.

 

[rychek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Lets not forget that Arcane Unforging does not destroy the banner. It merely removes any magical properties of said banner.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

"On the roll of 2+, the item is immediately destroyed and cannot be used for the rest of the game."

 

[Necromancy Black]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Think what he meant is that the magic item is destroyed, which is separate to the banner itself. The rulebook only states that it's the standard bearer who was to carry the Magic Standard.

 

[Khornefed]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Think what he meant is that the magic item is destroyed, which is separate to the banner itself.

Where do you get that? The magic banner IS the magic item. It is not separate. And if arcane unforging destroys the banner, its gone.

If you give a unit a magic banner, and it is destroyed by AU, your unit no longer has a banner. It was destroyed.

 

[Necromancy Black]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Unlike the rules for magic Armour, there's nothing saying that a banner is replaced by a magic banner. Infact, all it says is that the magic banner is carried by a standard bearer.

The magic item is destroyed by the standard bearer remains a standard bearer with his normal standard. The standard itself isn't even an item, it's simply a model upgrade that can't be lost until the unit either flees from combat or loses enough models to force the standard bearer model to be removed.

 

[Khornefed]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Unlike the rules for magic Armour, there's nothing saying that a banner is replaced by a magic banner. Infact, all it says is that the magic banner is carried by a standard bearer.

The magic item is destroyed by the standard bearer remains a standard bearer with his normal standard. The standard itself isn't even an item, it's simply a model upgrade that can't be lost until the unit either flees from combat or loses enough models to force the standard bearer model to be removed.

Whoa. Magic banners are under the Magic Items section of the BRB. Pretty sure that makes it an item that can be destroyed. And virtually all of the Army books that allow MBs in units say that you upgrade the model, then give it a magic banner worth up to x points. And the BRB specifically mentions that the standard bearer CAN be targeted by spells and such that specifically allow picking out the model. If the banner is destroyed, nobody's picking it up. Cant see where you are getting that from. The banner bearer is NOT carrying two banners.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Necromancy Black is correct - the "Magical Banner" item and the "banner" the standard bearer uses are different things in game terms. Destroying the magical banner destroys the magical item, but it doesn't make the standard bearer stop being a standard bearer.

 

[Gor-rok]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Yeah, a "Standard Bearer" is a model type, not an item. The effects this spell destroys are listed under the description of the magic item, not under the general rules for unit command upgrades.

Some unit champions can carry a magic item, which is a legal target for Arcane Unforging. Would anyone try and argue that zapping that makes him cease to be a champion as well?

 

[Necromancy Black]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

If the banner is destroyed, nobody's picking it up.

Except that the Standard the unit has isn't an item. At all. The Standard Bearer having a magic banner is the same as him having an enchanted item: It doesn't replace anything he has, it's in addition too. You target the standard bearer with a magic item and destroy it. That's fine. He's still a standard bearer because, as I've said, the standard is not an item and nothing in the BRB says that the magic banner replaces the standard. Infact the only items that replace anything are Magic Armours/Shields which replace any mundane armour shields.

Also, the rules say you can't remove a standard bearer by things that effect a single model, so I don't see how you can remove the standard bearer anyways.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

None of the magic banners say that they give +1 combat res (well, outside of the warbanner).
Does that mean, if you buy flaming attacks, you lose the +1 combat res?
No, you don't, because the effect of being a standard bearer, and having a magic banner are two different things.

-Matt

 

[olderplayer]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

Let me clarify the issue:
1. It is the unit the buys a standard and can then upgrade the standard to have a magic banner on it. In other words, the unit buys a standard and adds a magic item/banner to it and then gives the standard to a rank and file model to carry.
2. The standard cannot be removed unless either the last model in the unit that is not a champion or character is being removed or the unit breaks from combat,
3. If the standard bearer is somehow targetted and theoretically killed, then another rank and file model picks up the unit standard.
This is pretty clear in the BRB and the army books say the unit upgrades to a standard and the standard can be upgraded with a magic banner. The "standard bearer" is just a rank and file model that carries the unit standard and, thus, must ordinarily be in the front rank if there is room. You cannot, therefore, kill the standard or the standard bearer but the BRB does say one can target the model carrying the standard. The question then is if one can pick out and target the rank and file model carrying the standard (the standard bearer), then one cannot remove the unit standard but can one remove the magical item attached to the unit standard with arcane unforging?
This is different from a unit champion that clearly can be targetted and killed in combat or with certain magic and shooting attacks (failed look out sir, not enough rank and file models to have a look out sir and enough hits to allocate one or more to the champion, or with something that avoids a look out sir like a sniper shot or spell that targets a single model in a unit) and the magic items on the champion die with it and are attached to it. Arcane unforging clearly works on a unit champion to potentially wound it and remove it and remove at least one magic item attached to the champion if the champion survives..

 

[Pinktaco]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

In terms of explaining what goes on how about:

A magic standard is a regular standard that has been given a magical enchantment. By using arcane unforging you don't destroy the actual standard, just remove the magical enchantment it featured.

The model dies from taking a wound, but the (now normal standard) is picked up by another rank and file model.

 

[RipperDerek]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

A good way to visualize it is:

The standard bearer comes with a non-magical pole and attached banner (effect: +1 combat res). It can be updated to add a magical flag (effect: some additional effect). Arcane Unforging destroys the magical flag, but leaves the rest.



But ultimately, it doesn't matter how you visualize it. I think this thread is suffering from an excess of clarification at this point; the important thing isn't whether or not it makes sense, it's just about what the rules say.

 

[Necromancy Black]

Re: Limits on Arcane Unforging Targetting Magic Standard Bea

In terms of explaining what goes on how about:

A magic standard is a regular standard that has been given a magical enchantment.

Actually no, the magic standard is an item held but the standard bearer. It's not a magical enchantment or a replacement for the standard, that's not in the rules. It works more like a talisman or enchanted item.

It's ultimately the same point you're trying to make except that Arcane Unforging doesn't remove the magical properties of an item, it completely destroys the item and prevents it from being used. So if magic banners were enchantments on regular banners, destroying the magic banner would indeed destroy the entire unit standard.