Slann
Scalenex
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There is no doubt that Lizardmen would want to wipe out Beastmen and visa versa. I just don't see them as frequent foes. I can't imagine Lizardmen traveling to the Old World to take on Beastmen and I can't picture Beastmen sailing or marching to Lustria or the Southlands.
The Beastmen are the only Force of Destruction that reproduces in a fairly normal way (not counting the Fallen, Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves, and Chaos Dwarfs are basically extensions of their parent force of Order). They don't grow from spores, they aren't spawned exogenically from the Chaos Realm, they don't come from pools. Males and females copulate and they have offspring. Yes, Skaven do that do but females are a small percentage of the population and a small number of females ends up spawning hundreds of young each. Even if Beastmen females have litters, even Beastmen females are slightly less than half the population (Tolkien and traditional D&D Dwarves have men outnumber women 2:1 by birth stat statistics). A few Beastmen are mutated humans who flee or are driven out of their own society but they are a small minority. Most Beastmen reproduce in a relatively human way relatively mundane way.
Why did I bring this up? Unlike the Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Greenskins, or Daemons, a concentrated effort could permanently wipe out Beastmen at least one in area.
They are either the Chaos A-List because of all the Chaos powers, they are actually chaotic. Alternatively they are the B (or C-) Listers because they don't really plan sweeping offensives. They don't accept formal challenges or receive dubious gifts on the level of the Warriors of Chaos. They aren't pure Chaos the way Daemons are. They just kind of attack everything near them on a regular basis. They rarely have sweeping mega-offensives like the rest of the Forces of Destruction.
The Beastmen are an annoyance to the Empire, and the Greenskins, and Cathay and Brettonians, etc. They come out in a vast herd, break a bunch of stuff and then are beaten back. The Empire and Brettonia and the others can't really make a serious go of taking the Beastmen out for good because they are out of their element in the forests. That pattern does not exactly work in Lustria or the Southlands. Really the Lizardmen should at worst be on equal footing for using the terrain in the jungle than Beastmen. Reviewing the red point above, Lizardmen could probably wipe out jungle Beastmen with relative ease. The Beastmen can't retreat to the trees to regroup and repopulate the way they can in the Empire and the rest of the human dominated lands.
If Beastmen a recurring foe for the Lizardmen, they probably dwell outside the jungle utilizing terrain the Lizardmen are out of their element in.
Props to @Tlac'Natai the Observer for coming up with this before I did. While T-man's desert Lizard can survive the desert, they don't dominate it like they do the jungles. They can't wipe out their local Beastmen menace.
There is a counter example. If the Beastmen have an arch-nemesis, it's the Wood Elves. I find it somewhat pathetic that the Wood Elves for all their power cannot wipe out the Beastmen of Athel Loren, particualrly since the Beastmen waste a lot of their effort attack Brettonia or the nearest Dwarf hold. But the Beastmen in and around Athel Loren have Morghur reborn every few centuries. That basically represents the only time the four Chaos Gods toss the Beastmen any meaningful aid. So we can excuse the Wood Elves for their failure to eradicate the local Beastmen.
Beastmen are not an original creation of Games Workshop. They are inspired heavily by Greek mythology. Satyrs, Centaurs, Harpies, Minotaur, and giant mutant boars. Sometimes this transition is less than perfect. Gors and Centigors love alcohol but unlike their inspirational forebears of Greek myth, they are too stupid and unfocused to brew their own booze.
Greek mythology loves shades of grey and double edged swords. Poseidon represented the helpful friendly sea that sped ships on their way and allowed fishermen to feed their family. He's also the hungry sea that devours ships and kills people with storms. Centaurs and satyrs represent the positive and negative aspects of animals and the natural world. They are dangerous and wild, but they are also are wise and sometimes helpful. Not in the Warhammer world, the Beastmen are unrepentant monsters one and all. Thankfully, they are less prone to interspecies rape than Classical Satyrs and Centaurs. Good call Games Workshop!
Most Beastmen are part goat. Lets look at Satyrs some more. So Satyrs vary in Greek myths as mad destroyers, fun party guys, wise advisors, aids to farmers, hopeless romantics, predatory rapists, and a bunch of other things. Gors and Ungors are buff killing machines. While they aren't prone to rape (or if they are, leave that out of the stories you post on L-O please), but they do share the Classical Satyrs virility with their own kind. That's why they are the dominant sub-group in the Beasts of Chaos. Consciously or not, Games Workshops writers also folded in Medieval Christian symbolism. Goats and goat-men were associate with Satan. This pulls the Beastmen farther away from the friendly aspects of Satyrs and moves them to true Chaos.
Why am I covering this? Goats, cows, and horses are not native to the Americas. Sure they spread to Africa quickly (or came from North Africa and spread to Europe) but the Southlands are closer to a lost cousin of the Lustria (aka the Amazon) then they are analagous to the actual central African rain forest. Even though goats, cows, and horses are common in southern Africa and the Americas today, these regions do not have as deep a cultural image for horses, cows, and goats and myth and legend is very important when determining aspects of a fantasy world.
If Beastmen a recurring foe for the Lizardmen, they probably should be based on different animals than the "normal" Beastmen.
Props to @Tlac'Natai the Observer for coming up with this before I did. The Coyote Beastmen not only look different than the mainstream Beastmen, they act different too. I like @Warden 's idea of using Camasotz. They wouldn't logically be able to wield massive armies of batmen but they are sneaky enough that they could probably avoid concentrated attempts by Lizardmen to wipe them out. I'd probably avoid reptilian Beastmen, that would get confusing. Also that would violate the Fimir's standing trademarks. I would avoid Rats too for obvious. Jaguarmen are dicey, only include them if you want to up the blasphemy angle. For best results, dig into Native American or Central African folklore for evil human/animal hybrids, but if you are lazy, pick animals you don't like.
Going for the Southlands/Africa, Lion Beastmen would not be a good view. We view lions as noble beings in Western folklore. So make the savannahs inhabited by Hyena Beastmen. Actually Dungeons and Dragons has those, they are called Gnolls and Flinds (Flinds are the same monster basically, just smarter and stronger). Or maybe not. There is a giant savannah between the Sahara Desert and the Central African Rainforest but in the Warhammer world, it's implied if not stated that the jungles basically instantly give way to a harsh desert. Ouch. While you may have New World desert Beastmen, I can't imagine Southlands desert Beastmen coping with low quantities of water and massive hostile armies of self regenerating undead.
Don't be missing goats so much you go for Lustrian Llama based Beastmen. They'd be too adorable to be threatening. South of the the jungle or in the Not-Andes mountains probably go with wolves, bears, or some kind of mountain goat (which would be different personality wise from those based loosely on domesticated European goats). Maybe Deer or Elk, or Antok based Beastmen.
Lustria doesn't really need another faction with massed armies but if you really wanted massed armies of Beastmen fighting Lizardmen in Lustria, my vote is insect based Beastmen. That would drastically change the equation as they would probably be able to breed much quicker than their goat based counterparts but that would provide an explanation for how the Lizardmen haven't bested them yet. It also adds extra blasphemy, if say like mosquito they spawn in water. Kind of like Skinks and Saurus, only you know with actual copulation, ewwww. Then you'd have to come up with an explanation on why the Lizardmen are not overwhelmed by Chaos in their home turf. That's why I plan to stick with camasotz and similar small numbers of cunning hit and run critters. Assuming I write in Beastmen south of the border at all.
Anyway those are my thoughts, feel free to add your own or dispute my points or suggestions.Or you can just click "like" without adding to the conversation. Or make a cheap pun or silly picture without adding to the conversation. How did I get so cranky?
The Beastmen are the only Force of Destruction that reproduces in a fairly normal way (not counting the Fallen, Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves, and Chaos Dwarfs are basically extensions of their parent force of Order). They don't grow from spores, they aren't spawned exogenically from the Chaos Realm, they don't come from pools. Males and females copulate and they have offspring. Yes, Skaven do that do but females are a small percentage of the population and a small number of females ends up spawning hundreds of young each. Even if Beastmen females have litters, even Beastmen females are slightly less than half the population (Tolkien and traditional D&D Dwarves have men outnumber women 2:1 by birth stat statistics). A few Beastmen are mutated humans who flee or are driven out of their own society but they are a small minority. Most Beastmen reproduce in a relatively human way relatively mundane way.
Why did I bring this up? Unlike the Orcs and Goblins, Skaven, Greenskins, or Daemons, a concentrated effort could permanently wipe out Beastmen at least one in area.
They are either the Chaos A-List because of all the Chaos powers, they are actually chaotic. Alternatively they are the B (or C-) Listers because they don't really plan sweeping offensives. They don't accept formal challenges or receive dubious gifts on the level of the Warriors of Chaos. They aren't pure Chaos the way Daemons are. They just kind of attack everything near them on a regular basis. They rarely have sweeping mega-offensives like the rest of the Forces of Destruction.
The Beastmen are an annoyance to the Empire, and the Greenskins, and Cathay and Brettonians, etc. They come out in a vast herd, break a bunch of stuff and then are beaten back. The Empire and Brettonia and the others can't really make a serious go of taking the Beastmen out for good because they are out of their element in the forests. That pattern does not exactly work in Lustria or the Southlands. Really the Lizardmen should at worst be on equal footing for using the terrain in the jungle than Beastmen. Reviewing the red point above, Lizardmen could probably wipe out jungle Beastmen with relative ease. The Beastmen can't retreat to the trees to regroup and repopulate the way they can in the Empire and the rest of the human dominated lands.
If Beastmen a recurring foe for the Lizardmen, they probably dwell outside the jungle utilizing terrain the Lizardmen are out of their element in.
Props to @Tlac'Natai the Observer for coming up with this before I did. While T-man's desert Lizard can survive the desert, they don't dominate it like they do the jungles. They can't wipe out their local Beastmen menace.
There is a counter example. If the Beastmen have an arch-nemesis, it's the Wood Elves. I find it somewhat pathetic that the Wood Elves for all their power cannot wipe out the Beastmen of Athel Loren, particualrly since the Beastmen waste a lot of their effort attack Brettonia or the nearest Dwarf hold. But the Beastmen in and around Athel Loren have Morghur reborn every few centuries. That basically represents the only time the four Chaos Gods toss the Beastmen any meaningful aid. So we can excuse the Wood Elves for their failure to eradicate the local Beastmen.
Beastmen are not an original creation of Games Workshop. They are inspired heavily by Greek mythology. Satyrs, Centaurs, Harpies, Minotaur, and giant mutant boars. Sometimes this transition is less than perfect. Gors and Centigors love alcohol but unlike their inspirational forebears of Greek myth, they are too stupid and unfocused to brew their own booze.
Greek mythology loves shades of grey and double edged swords. Poseidon represented the helpful friendly sea that sped ships on their way and allowed fishermen to feed their family. He's also the hungry sea that devours ships and kills people with storms. Centaurs and satyrs represent the positive and negative aspects of animals and the natural world. They are dangerous and wild, but they are also are wise and sometimes helpful. Not in the Warhammer world, the Beastmen are unrepentant monsters one and all. Thankfully, they are less prone to interspecies rape than Classical Satyrs and Centaurs. Good call Games Workshop!
Most Beastmen are part goat. Lets look at Satyrs some more. So Satyrs vary in Greek myths as mad destroyers, fun party guys, wise advisors, aids to farmers, hopeless romantics, predatory rapists, and a bunch of other things. Gors and Ungors are buff killing machines. While they aren't prone to rape (or if they are, leave that out of the stories you post on L-O please), but they do share the Classical Satyrs virility with their own kind. That's why they are the dominant sub-group in the Beasts of Chaos. Consciously or not, Games Workshops writers also folded in Medieval Christian symbolism. Goats and goat-men were associate with Satan. This pulls the Beastmen farther away from the friendly aspects of Satyrs and moves them to true Chaos.
Why am I covering this? Goats, cows, and horses are not native to the Americas. Sure they spread to Africa quickly (or came from North Africa and spread to Europe) but the Southlands are closer to a lost cousin of the Lustria (aka the Amazon) then they are analagous to the actual central African rain forest. Even though goats, cows, and horses are common in southern Africa and the Americas today, these regions do not have as deep a cultural image for horses, cows, and goats and myth and legend is very important when determining aspects of a fantasy world.
If Beastmen a recurring foe for the Lizardmen, they probably should be based on different animals than the "normal" Beastmen.
Props to @Tlac'Natai the Observer for coming up with this before I did. The Coyote Beastmen not only look different than the mainstream Beastmen, they act different too. I like @Warden 's idea of using Camasotz. They wouldn't logically be able to wield massive armies of batmen but they are sneaky enough that they could probably avoid concentrated attempts by Lizardmen to wipe them out. I'd probably avoid reptilian Beastmen, that would get confusing. Also that would violate the Fimir's standing trademarks. I would avoid Rats too for obvious. Jaguarmen are dicey, only include them if you want to up the blasphemy angle. For best results, dig into Native American or Central African folklore for evil human/animal hybrids, but if you are lazy, pick animals you don't like.
Going for the Southlands/Africa, Lion Beastmen would not be a good view. We view lions as noble beings in Western folklore. So make the savannahs inhabited by Hyena Beastmen. Actually Dungeons and Dragons has those, they are called Gnolls and Flinds (Flinds are the same monster basically, just smarter and stronger). Or maybe not. There is a giant savannah between the Sahara Desert and the Central African Rainforest but in the Warhammer world, it's implied if not stated that the jungles basically instantly give way to a harsh desert. Ouch. While you may have New World desert Beastmen, I can't imagine Southlands desert Beastmen coping with low quantities of water and massive hostile armies of self regenerating undead.
Don't be missing goats so much you go for Lustrian Llama based Beastmen. They'd be too adorable to be threatening. South of the the jungle or in the Not-Andes mountains probably go with wolves, bears, or some kind of mountain goat (which would be different personality wise from those based loosely on domesticated European goats). Maybe Deer or Elk, or Antok based Beastmen.
Lustria doesn't really need another faction with massed armies but if you really wanted massed armies of Beastmen fighting Lizardmen in Lustria, my vote is insect based Beastmen. That would drastically change the equation as they would probably be able to breed much quicker than their goat based counterparts but that would provide an explanation for how the Lizardmen haven't bested them yet. It also adds extra blasphemy, if say like mosquito they spawn in water. Kind of like Skinks and Saurus, only you know with actual copulation, ewwww. Then you'd have to come up with an explanation on why the Lizardmen are not overwhelmed by Chaos in their home turf. That's why I plan to stick with camasotz and similar small numbers of cunning hit and run critters. Assuming I write in Beastmen south of the border at all.
Anyway those are my thoughts, feel free to add your own or dispute my points or suggestions.
