8th Ed. Lets discuss about Liz vs Tomb King

[gapton]

I fought two 500 points small games with my buddy and I won both!

Well here is what I think:

TK archers suffer no shooting penalty whatsoever, I can't help but think that choosing skirmisher skinks will make absolutely no sense. At 7 points without shield they die more easily than ranked skinks! The only advantage is march and shoot, and at 2 points per model, or 40% increase in points, I think my only option is to choose ranked skinks.

Same for Chameleon Skinks, essentially 5 pts vs 12 pts for +1BS.

I find that Saurus are really good aginst the weak skeleton warriros/archers! I ramped my 24 Sauruses with a scar-vet ( 3 ranks 8 wide ) , and it decimated them and I won by over 10 points in close combat resulting in almost the entire squad melting away.

Skrox are strong but I feel they are a bit pricey, perhaps they are better-used against unit with high T instead of skeletons (T2)

Since we played 500 points games, TK couldn't bring out their prince and so on, so perhaps in addition to the fact that we are both noobs, TK army isn't quite balanced at 500 points games. So I won with relative ease.

Coming up I am going to have a 800 points game with my friend again, this time I feel it is harder to come up with a good list or strategy.

Ranked skinks are so cheap and their poison javelines are so good that I plan to use some of them to chase and shoot lone characters.

I think I should have one strong block of saurus with a scar-vet to deal with the skeleton unit with prince (WS 6)

I also want to try CoC and Salamanders. I think salamanders should do pretty well, I might bring two and guard them with skinks so they don't get charged at.

CoC, I love the models (mine are old skinks CoC) and I would like to give it a try (never used them). However I strongly feel that 35 ppm and 50 for comm are very expensive.

On the other hand, I will have no lord, Oxyotol will be shoot to death before I know it loool

At 200 points for hero, I find it hard to fit in a scar-vet and a level 2 skink priest too. I fear that the TK might have some decent caster and I feel that I must have a priest going against TK even just for dispell.

I have only had 2 games so I could be very wrong, but I am trying to come up with some good tactics against TK. What do you guys think? I am sure you guys are more experienced and could share some thoughts.

 

[Arli]

I play against TK almost weekly. The player that I play against likes to stay back and shoot my units (lizards or Ogres) as I come to him then follow that up with a chariot charge. That said, If I make it to his units, I have won the game. He cannot stand against any long combat against my Saurus or IronGuts.

Chameleons are good for taking out the screaming catapults and the casket of souls. If your opponent brings a hero titan, you should take it out as quickly as possible. That thing gives all casters within 12 inches d3 added to casting value. It can really increase the TK magic phase. TK magic is where he will beat you (even with a slann).

 

[gapton]

Chameleons are good for taking out the screaming catapults and the casket of souls.

But wouldn't it better to send a unit of 10 skinks, to do the job, almost just as well? I just don't think +1BS is so significant that its worth the extra 70 points, especially TK archer simply hit you on a 5+ regardless. 10 Cham Skinks = 24 ranked Skinks , with more than TWICE the amount of shots, wouldn't it be a better choice?

If your opponent brings a hero titan, you should take it out as quickly as possible. That thing gives all casters within 12 inches d3 added to casting value. It can really increase the TK magic phase. TK magic is where he will beat you (even with a slann).

Thanks I didn't know that. I wonder would scar-vet on cold one joined with 5 CoC be the right unit for such job? However since we are playing 800 points games I don't think I will meet him until we get to 1000 or 2000 games

 

[Caprasauridae]

Congrats on your winning streak! Tomb Kings are my main army, and you are correct on that they don't function very well on low point values.

I think I should have one strong block of saurus with a scar-vet to deal with the skeleton unit with prince (WS 6)

Tomb Prince has WS5, the King has WS6. In the end they are still skeletons. You should be more worried when he starts to wield Tomb Guard, as they can hold their own against Saurus Warriors quite well. And if you kill the character, poof goes the Weapon Skill boost.

The advantage of Chameleons Skinks is not the bigger BS, but the Scout ability. This allows you to deploy them anywhere on the board after all normal deployment, as long as it's not closer than 12" to an enemy unit. This way you can see where your opponent deploys his juiciest targets (the Casket and Catapults, as Arli said, among others) and possibly take care of them on your first turn. But you are absolutely right on that the Skeleton Archers are not good news for our shooters. On the other hand, numerous poison attacks are not good news for TK's Sphinxes.

I wouldn't worry about the Hierotitan yet, as it will probably be wielded only in bigger games. Also, GW hasn't even released a model for it...

 

[Arli]

Caprasauridae is correct, the chameleons are to take those high priority targets out in the first turn.

When I play against the tomb kink player in my club, he will reform all his skeletal archers to take out those chameleons. This means that even if the chameleons die (and the will), they are still keeping the archers from shooting at anything else.

 

[gapton]

Thanks, I totally forgot about the scout rule. Can we place it exactly 12" away so we can shoot immediately without moving?

starting at 3+, long range and multi-shot would give 20 5+ to hit shots with 6 being auto wound.

That does seem like a very good way to target a specific enemy unit! However they are costly at 120 points per 10 models. Will they die easily when the enemy get to charge / shoot at them?

About the shooting of TK. Skeleton archers still hit on a 5+ even if they volley fire right? So if my opponent get a unit of 50 archers (10 wide), add that badass Queen to it, and that double-shot magic, I am potentially going to face 70 4+ to hit, POISON shots, per ROUND.

That sounds scary.

Have anyone fought such setup and I wonder what would be a good tactics against this? Just charge them ASAP?

 

[Caprasauridae]

Yes, Arrows of Asaph ALWAYS hit on the number their Ballistic Skill dictates, so only way to make them NOT hit on 5+ is to use spells, items or abilities that lower their BS, like Lore of Shadow's Mystifying Miasma spell. Luckily, our Slann can access that powerful lore...

The Khalida set-up is one of the few ways Tomb Kings have won tournaments in the 8th edition, so it is potentially devastating. Khalida is a lord who costs almost 400 points alone, and needs 50+ archers to get it's potential to the fullest. On the other hand, Khalida herself is far from unkillable, and making her go poof, the skeletons immediately lose the bonuses she gives. Death Slann and potentially Shadow's Penumbral Pendulum, along with all the nuke spells, are good way to deal with her. The Special Chameleon Skink Character Oxyotl can also try to snipe her from her unit, but if he cannot do it in one turn, he will face an unerring poisonous death. On the flip side, if Khalida's unit is the only one Also, both Skeleton Archers and Khalida are quite weak in close combat and probably no one who uses this tactic seriously will kit her offensively (and it doesn't matter anyway, because Skeletons will bleed Combat Resolution like hemophiliacs), so charging them as quickly as possible is a really good way to deal with this unit. I'm guessing even Teradons can tie this unit for at least two rounds, if your opponent doesn't get lucky with his rolls.

 

[gapton]

The Special Chameleon Skink Character Oxyotl can also try to snipe her from her unit, but if he cannot do it in one turn, he will face an unerring poisonous death.

I can't seem to see how would Oxyotl be able to do that.

Say I place him 12" from her using the scout rule. Starting at 2+, long range, double tap, snipe will make it 5+ to hit, with 5+ being poisoned.

Throw 2D6, getting two 5+ will wound her, say if her AS failed miserably, it will only inflict two wounds So she will still have 1 wound left. This is the best-case scenario.

And of course, Oxytol will die immediately, that's 160 points down the drain for two wounds.

This would only work if :
1) you actually can place Oxyotl at exactly 12" , however a TK player will most likely not let you do that.
2) You manage at least 1 wound with magic

Even if you have those two conditions, the odds aren't exactly high either.

If you pull it off, great, you probably won't the game as soon as you charge the archers.

If it didn't, then that is 160 points gone for almost nothing.

Isn't that quite risky?

 

[Caprasauridae]

It is risky. I just wanted to present an alternative to sniping without spells. And as shooting happens after magic, Oxyotl could try to finish what your Slann started. Also, you are right that Oxyotl will die after that, but doesn't he always die?

EDIT: I was reminded on another forum that you do get Look Out Sir! save, if eligible, when targeted by the Penumbral Pendulum spell. That greatly reduces it's efficiency.

 

[gapton]

Victory!!!!

3 winning streak !

We played a bigger game this time, going up to 800 points from 500 points.

I had two lists ready, however we only had time for one game (mainly because we are playing a little too slowly since we need to check the rules quite a lot)

Anyway the list I used was as follow:
1 Skink Priest lv 2 with Plaque of Tepok (so 3 spells in total)
2 Salamanders & 8 Skinks handler
20 Skinks
10 Skinks
10 Skinks Skirmisher with javeline and shield
22 Saurus

I was up agsinst:
Tomb King + 30 archers with a Mage of some sort
20 archers with another mage
Casket

I go first so I marched everything forward, with a group of skinks in front of my salamanders. I tried to cast a meteor but it got dispelled, I tried to wound the casket with spell #4 (Urannon's Thunderbolt) but the high toughness blocked it (shouldn't have casted it if I knew it has T 10)

Then he focused fire at my salamanders and using the casket's spell (the one that makes you check leadership) he killed my entire salamander unit. (160 points )

Then my mage casted a meteor next round and immediately died due to miscast. However this meteor was proven a major success since it killed some archers but most importantly landed two wounds on the casket.

Then my skinks got constantly shot at because he was afraid of my poison attacks. The skinks melted away a bit faster then I expected, mainly due to the fact that he has more than 40 shots per round (he constantly cast his double-shot magic on his larger unit of archers).

However, when my 22 Sauruses charged into the archer unit with Tomb King, it was pretty devastating for him, in three rounds, everything was killed and I constantly win my 7 to 10 points, so all the skeletons were gone before I knew it. In fact, the unit only last two rounds, the Tomb King didn't die and held me the other round. He casted a spell trying to kill my 16 or so Saurus ALONG with his TK, ended up killing some more of my saurus but not wounding his Tomb King. Otherwise the TK would have died sooner.

My skirmisher skinks unit has one unit left, 9 of them shot dead earlier.... so I hide behind a mountain and with only one skink, flanked the casket! I was hoping for a poison attack landing on the casket.... even if I had just one skink, that would be enough to kill that damn casket. AND I DID!

So with one unit of archers remaining, all his mage and Tomb King dead, the army started taking leadership test and see how many skele would disappear.

Before my winning saurus charge into the last unit of archer, it was pretty clear that 10 skele will not hold 10 sauruses.

Good game

I learned something new so I thought I would talk about it

Skinks are great at taking out war machine, lone characters, or anything with high toughness but with minimal armour saves.

Sauruses are awesomely powerful. If a bunch of skele get charged, they are doomed, even with Tomb King's WS 6, they still die like nothing. with good rank bonus to win more points, their unit will usually die off very fast once combat has started.

Instead of killing the character, sometimes killing the unit till the point where the characters are the only models left, can be a cheap and easy way to kill the expensive characters, thanks to the fact that they never run and take wounds from leadership test.

Tomb King's archers are strong, its a good idea to have something to divert their attention. With their archers usually being a HUGE unit, breaking up and spreading out my units (10 skinks each instead of 20, 1 salamander per unit instead of 2) can perhaps lessen their effectiveness. Of course, the highest priority is still to charge them ASAP.

The casket has some very very powerful magic. With skinks having a low leadership of 6 I can see him using that in every upcoming battle and deploying it to the very far end of the table to make sure I won't catch it.

I have yet to come up with a good plan for this. Perhaps CoC ?

Please share your thoughts

 

[walkertexasranger]

chamo skinks or terradons to take out the casket

 

[Caprasauridae]

Some things that came to my mind:

Did you know that when Cold-blooded models are shot with the Light of Death (Casket's spell), you get to roll 4D6 for your Ld, discarding the highest? This gives Lizardmen a slight edge against the Casket.

In the end you say you flank the Casket, does that mean you went into close combat? Skinks only have Poisoned Attacks on their shooting. Also, you don't mention it, so I'm not if you used the rule or not, but the Casket blows up after it's destroyed, hitting everything within 12" with 4+.

Anyway, congratulations on those first glorious victories and keep going towards higher point games!

 

[Arli]

Another thing to note, while within 12 inches of the slann BSB/General, you get to use the slann's ldr9 (10 with banner) and reroll that test. I know when I play the TK player in my club, he will not even bother to cast at anything within range of my slann. I usually pass those tests or lose only 1 or 2 models.

 

[gapton]

Some things that came to my mind:

Did you know that when Cold-blooded models are shot with the Light of Death (Casket's spell), you get to roll 4D6 for your Ld, discarding the highest? This gives Lizardmen a slight edge against the Casket.

In the end you say you flank the Casket, does that mean you went into close combat? Skinks only have Poisoned Attacks on their shooting. Also, you don't mention it, so I'm not if you used the rule or not, but the Casket blows up after it's destroyed, hitting everything within 12" with 4+.

Anyway, congratulations on those first glorious victories and keep going towards higher point games!

Yea we were accompanied by some other veteran players and the made sure we got most of the rules right. So I rolled 4D6 and take away the largest dice.

Perhaps it was 2 or 3 bad rolls, but Skink's leadership of 6 (we were playing 800 pts so no Slann) easily got me more than 5 wounds each time. One unit of 10 Skinks fled after suffering 5 deaths. One salamander got killed directly (randomizing) and 3 handlers died, another round, the remaining salamader, which has 1 wound left, got killed, so there goes 160 points lol

Yea by flanking the Casket I actually meant marching up close (less than 6") then shoot it. Since it was a Skirmisher skink it can shoot after marching and I equipped it with a javeline so it hit on a 4+ (close range). Luckily I rolled a 6 and immediately wounded the casket, with 1 wound left and no AS, that is one heroic skink that won me the battle!

 

[gapton]

Another thing to note, while within 12 inches of the slann BSB/General, you get to use the slann's ldr9 (10 with banner) and reroll that test. I know when I play the TK player in my club, he will not even bother to cast at anything within range of my slann. I usually pass those tests or lose only 1 or 2 models.

Well my general of that game was a Skink Priest loooool his leadership of 6 isn't impressive at all haha

At 800 pts, I cannot find a good lord to field. Oxyotl is too expensive considering it will be shot to death the first round.

So I only had 200 points for heroes. I picked a powerful Skink Priest. Level 2 with Plaque of Tepok so he knows 3 spells in total. However he miscast and died in the second round, which is a shame really.

 

[Arli]

Chameleons and/or Terradons will take out the casket. I prefer chameleons. I will take two units of 6 in smaller games. I usually deploy them on the flank or if I have to directly 12 inches from the casket (or as close as I can get to it). Sometimes, you will not make it to the casket as he will focus all his archers on the chameleons (as well as the cakset itself), but that is fire and magic not directed at your other units as well.

Grats on the victory.

Cupped hands may be worth taking on your Priest in smaller games to absorb the first miscast.

 

[gapton]

Chameleons and/or Terradons will take out the casket. I prefer chameleons. I will take two units of 6 in smaller games. I usually deploy them on the flank or if I have to directly 12 inches from the casket (or as close as I can get to it). Sometimes, you will not make it to the casket as he will focus all his archers on the chameleons (as well as the cakset itself), but that is fire and magic not directed at your other units as well.

Grats on the victory.

Cupped hands may be worth taking on your Priest in smaller games to absorb the first miscast.

Thanks, will def try the Cameleon Skinks or Terradons next time as I am sure I will see the casket again the next game

About Cupped Hands, do I choose when to use it? Also, do I roll my own miscast result, say, I rolled 2-4 on a miscast table, with a 50% chance of my wizard dying, I *then* decide to use the Cupped Hands, or must I transfer the miscast to my opponent *BEFORE* I obtain a miscast result ?

The Army Book says, "If the bearer miscast, roll a D6."

That sounds like "miscast" is the one and only condition required. therefore it is not up to me when to use Cupped Hands, it should be "used" automatically on the first miscast of the bearer. Is that correct?

 

[Arli]

You roll for the miscast. Once you get the result, you have the option to pass it to your opponents wizard. You do not have to use it if you think the priest will survive. If you roll a result that gives the priest a single wound, you may want to keep that result and save the cupped hands for later. If you roll a 3 or a 12, you probably want to pass that on.

Also, abilities that ignore miscasts cannot be used agains the cupped hands because you are transfering the effects of the miscast, not the miscast itself.

 

[Devean]

Yes, Arrows of Asaph ALWAYS hit on the number their Ballistic Skill dictates, so only way to make them NOT hit on 5+ is to use spells, items or abilities that lower their BS, like Lore of Shadow's Mystifying Miasma spell. Luckily, our Slann can access that powerful lore...

Does this include iceshard blizzard? That is, would iceshard blizzard affect their 5+ to hit role and make it 6+? It doesn't affect their BS but it does make -1 to hit...

 

[Arli]

No, it does not. The special rules for TK archers state that they ignore all modifiers to shooting and instead wound on a 5+ (unless accompanied by Kalista or some other character).