8th Ed. Kroxigor vs Stegadon

[Ixt]

Good morning, y'all.

Just curious: has anyone crunched the numbers between Stegadons/Ancient Stegadons and points-equivalent units of Krox? I'm specifically interested how they compare when fighting all-things-Monstrous (including Monsters, though I expect Stegs win here).

I'm torn: I feel like Krox are better as far as consistent damage output goes, but I'm well-aware of the Stegadon's explosiveness (and, on the other end, heavy reliance on Impact Hits/Multi-Wound/Thunderstomp rolls) and durability. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to run the math before my game tomorrow.

Being neither Stubborn nor Terror-causing is something I've already considered, as well as the Krox's Ld7 and PF. I'm just looking for damage output/intake/combat res, basically. Fights that each would actually win in.

 

[Scalenex]

Let's assume a T6 monster with WS 3 and no armor save capable of withstanding a Strength 6 or 7 attack.

Ancient Stegadon with Unstoppable Stampede and Sharpened Horns is exactly the price of five Kroxigors with a Unit Champion.

Let's assume the Kroxigor are fielded three wide and the back rank does not get PF (the difference if they do or don't isn't that big)

Stegadon charges, causes 4.5 impact hits inflicting 2.25 wounds which with d3 wounds will multiple to 4.5. Then assuming it survives to strike it gets 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wounds. That's 5.5 wounds in round one. After Devastating Charge is lost and the impacts hits are lost. That's 1.5 hits, .75 wounds next round.

Kroxigor charge in (or are charged) without breaking down every monster, let's assume one dies before they strike with ASL.

Front three have 13 attacks with 1.67 bonus attacks. That's 7.34 hits and 4.89 wounds. Assume another Kroxigor dies. Fighting a monster you have a rank of 3 Kroxigor and the Monster has no ranks. You don't get CR for the first rank but you can claim Steadfast for it if you lose, so the Steggy's Stubborn looks a lot less sexy. You get 11.67 attacks next round, that's 3.89 wounds. You still have an intact rank so you are still Steadfast.

Even with pessimistic projections of Kroxigor casualties and the optimistic projection that assumes the Stegadon gets the charge, the Kroxigor barely inflicts fewer wounds the first round and does much better on consecutive rounds. Given that a Kroxigor's damage output is not charge dependent, I call them the superior big game hunter. Assuming the Ancient Stegadon didn't win after two rounds, it's probably going to die while you'll still likely have some Kroxigor left.

Kroxigor can negate all the armor of a 3+ saving monster and Ancient Steggies face a 6+. One thing I learned in tournaments is that Kroxigor are used so seldom that a lot of players do not understand the threat Kroxigors present to their biggest monsters. My immediate gaming threads study up on what I write on L-O but my casual gaming friends do not often bother to stop me from b-lining my Kroxigor at their monsters.

A unit of Kroxigor is less vulnerable to cannons and stone throwers than Stegadons. An Ancient Stegadon is less vulnerable to BS based shooting. I call this a wash, though if Kroxigor's move through a nice swamp or river they get the edge.

If you up the enemy armor save to 3+ the Kroxigor do even better versus Steggies. Same if you go to T7.

The enemy having a breath weapon will slide things in the Stegadons favor since a Stegadon can take typical high volume of low Strength hits a lot better.

Stegadon clearly outclass the Kroxigor when it comes to fighting infantry. They will be much harder to wound and theydisplay a smaller frontage so fewer attacks will be able to target them. One Strength 6 Thunderstomp beats three Strength 5 Stomps any day. Kroxigor hate fighting infantry. Kroxigor can usually get Steadfast against lone monsters but almost never versus infantry. This gives value to the Stegadon's Stubborn.

Stegadons do better than Kroxigor when steamrolling a chaff redirector unit. More often than not, the Stegadon's impact hits will kill or practically kill off the enemy unit before they get to attack while Kroxigor might take some wounds before their ASL attacks kick in. Also, A Stegadon can restrain an overrun without a Skink character nearby letting them reform while a Kroxigor unit needs a Skink to tell them to stop.

 

[Ixt]

Damn Scale, thanks a bunch!

It looks like I'll be fielding Krox instead. I suppose they'll be hunting Demigryph Knights, possibly with support from a cowboy and/or Wyssan's.

I think the warchickens will eventually rip both options to shreds, though now I see that the Krox will deliver far more damage before they go (maybe even win combat?).

 

[Scalenex]

Demigryph Riders are point-for-point the best thing the Empire has. Kroxigor will rip apart Steam Tanks or Magemobiles, but they will not fare well against Chickens.

4 Chicken knights with FC is just barely over the cost of 5 Kroxigor with an Ancient.

If you charge them.

15 chicken attacks, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound. That's 6.7 wounds.
5 Knight attacks, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 2/3 pass avoid armor save, that's another 1.11 wounds.

That's three Kroxigor to answer back with 10 attacks, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, 2/3 avoid armor save that's 2.78, less than one whole knight. With the charge you got 3.78 against 7.7 with no Steadfast for you.

Short of waited dice, there is no way for Lizardmen to beat Chicken Knights with an equal points quantity of models (fortunately Empire infantry and characters tend to be overcosted points wise so it usually balances out). If you want to kill them as opposed to just tarpit or redirect them, your Kroxigor MUST have backup in their fight or you need soften the knights up with a Searing or Spirit Leech spell or some kind of hex. Or you could take seven Kroxigor so you have a casualty crumple zone letting you answer back with full attacks.

 

[Ixt]

Well, I usually run an Oldblood on a Cold One w/ the Piranha Blade, a Dawnstone, a Potion of Strength, and a Charmed Shield...

I was thinking that I'd have the Krox hold them up and do my best to keep him around just in case. Even so, I'm going to be redirecting the chickens for as long as possible.

Gonna try to post my list tonight.

 

[Ersh]

Stegadon charges, causes 4.5 impact hits inflicting 2.25 wounds which with d3 wounds will multiple to 4.5. Then assuming it survives to strike it gets 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 wounds. That's 5.5 wounds in round one. After Devastating Charge is lost and the impacts hits are lost. That's 1.5 hits, .75 wounds next round.

Kroxigor charge in (or are charged) without breaking down every monster, let's assume one dies before they strike with ASL.

Front three have 13 attacks with 1.67 bonus attacks. That's 7.34 hits and 4.89 wounds. Assume another Kroxigor dies. Fighting a monster you have a rank of 3 Kroxigor and the Monster has no ranks. You don't get CR for the first rank but you can claim Steadfast for it if you lose, so the Steggy's Stubborn looks a lot less sexy. You get 11.67 attacks next round, that's 3.89 wounds. You still have an intact rank so you are still Steadfast.

Wow, that's interesting.
I always thought, that Stagadon is much better, but to be honest - it showed really mediocre results in game (still people tend to fear him).

Downside of this calculation - is that Kroxies are not best example of monstrous infantry for their points. And if Stegadon is worse then Kroxies... Well, it seems i will give Kroxies one more chance.

 

[NexS1]

All I need to say is this:

Impact Hits (D6+1), Multiple Wounds(D3)

In my opinion, being able to deal instant hits at high strength before any blows are struck is gold. Not to mention the thunderstomp at the end.

 

[Pinktaco]

Well, I usually run an Oldblood on a Cold One w/ the Piranha Blade, a Dawnstone, a Potion of Strength, and a Charmed Shield...

I was thinking that I'd have the Krox hold them up and do my best to keep him around just in case. Even so, I'm going to be redirecting the chickens for as long as possible.

Gonna try to post my list tonight.

The OB will EAT chicken knights by himself lol. He'll do an average of 6½ wounds after having popped the potion. Even afterwards he'll still be on S5 with armour piercing. The piranha blade is quite sexeh against multiple wound models, even 1+ save models.