8th Ed. Karl Franz Ascended

[SilverFaith]

Fairly sure the idea was to have a character bus available AFTER destroying his magic sword.

To be honest, the second he loses either of the two items he isn't really an OP problem anymore
and it opens a tons of straight forwards ways to deal with him:

The talisman pops: magic and poison him.

The Ghal Maraz essence pops: his just a regular 10 S5 attacks and can easily be taken on by a couple of scarvets..

I really don't get why discussing "after we arcane unforged him" tactics
...cause after that he goes back to be a completly regular threat that can be dealt with as anything else.


the discussion goes: how ELSE would you deal with him?

(sorry for condescending tone, im trying to state my point of view, not belittle anyone)

The only other real way is keeping him redirected (Which is almost impossible, so that's not really an option I suppose), or heavy artillery, which we don't have.

Though I suppose a large unit of spear cold ones might do a number on him. If you go full ham, and manage to catch him, 30 Cold ones with spears is 1050 points with Full command. Charge into him, challenge with the champion, have him get killed, but spare the unit, and then unleash a storm of S5 attacks on him. He can't break because of steadfast, throw the heavens signature on him, and he only hits on 4s, which means an average of 5 wounds - which a charge+3 ranks and banner will win against immediately, and then any wounds caused will be pure combat res in your favour.

Alternatively, skinks. Lots of them. 50 skinks will on average lose about 9 models a round, which will keep him tied up for about 4 rounds of combat if they don't break, which they wont if within your standard of discipline BSB slann.

The main problem is still getting him there. Flying is super annoying.

I actually thought of something different. If you can get your hands on doom and darkness, that on top of Iceshard Blizzard will put him at Ld6. Throw a helm of discord somewhere inside your Scarvet+Oldblood unit, and hope he fails his Ld check. No attacks, and is automatically hit. I'd like to see him survive that against 5 Saurus characters.

 

[Mr Phat]

From what you just wrote, Silverfaith
I realised why I hate him so much:
He makes it impossible NOT to have the game determined by very few rolls.
He really degrades the game to "all or nothing" "heads or tails".

Good points though.
A Death+Heaven build would also be usable in tournaments, making the list
viable against most things.

 

[borkbork]

what about a bus with the following loadout (or something along these lines). The goal is going first.

Old blood with ASF sword and strength pot 5 attacks at str 8 NO AS, so only 5.5+ ward for Karl (2-3 wounds)
OLd blood with I10 sword and OTS. 5 attacks at str 5, 6+ AS and 5.5.+ ward (1-2 wounds)
Old blood with Steg helm (impact hits) and egg of quanco.
Scarvet with razor standard (or is there a better banner)

and perhaps a old blood with potion of speed and hydra blade (but that requires to hex Karls I by at least 1).

Nvm........you just wont do enough damage before he gets to strike and just to situational.


And the downside of the potions is that he might flee when you charge him after drinking it.
But forcing him to flee might actually not be so bad if you have some terradons around.

 

[n810]

How about a big unit of ripperdactal skink chiefs and a unit of rippers, and a slann with the lore of light (for ASF, ect...) hmm maybe give the chief all of those cheep nerf weapons, (-1 attacks if wounds, ect...).

 

[SilverFaith]

How about a big unit of ripperdactal skink chiefs

Not possible. Flyers can't join flyers.

and a unit of rippers, and a slann with the lore of light (for ASF, ect...) hmm maybe give the chief all of those cheep nerf weapons, (-1 attacks if wounds, ect...).

Without Killing Blow, I'm not sure what good they'll be against him. Though it does help them get into melee, and the additional attacks would probably help out as well, especially if you toaded him.

I just thought of something stupid. He has a bound spell. Couldn't you use some of those anti-caster items on him? Can't remember them off the top of my head, but turning him into a toad would be pretty hillarious.

EDIT: Sevijirs hex scroll is used after an enemy casts a spell, and takes effect if the caster rolls above his wizard level.

He doesn't have a wizard level. It reduces all stats to 1 aside from wounds, and his items stop working.

Blow this on him, and throw any spell with a ton of hits on him. Boosted Soul Quench should do nicely. That will average 11 wounds on him, which is enough to kill him.

Only problem is baiting him into using it, though considering the cheapness of the spell compared to the power, the enemy is likely to throw a dice or two into it, which is all you need. He returns to his usual self on a 4+, but you just need to make sure he doesn't even get to roll, and you are good. Or at least chip off as many wounds as you can, so he is manageable when he does return.

 

[Bloodzerker]

the items explicitly reference wizards.

bounds spell use doesn't make you a wizard.

Also if u read your rules, Rippers have armour piercing rule even if the kiling blow doesnt work id love to see the opponents face when you field 800 pts of rippers aka 20ish....

 

[Man0waR]

I have skip half the thread to just answer how a cold one bus could do it.

Its risky but with Crown of command it is safer.


5 coldone riders with champion, musician & banner, requires low number. Set them in formation of 3 x 2 (or more)
add your 3 oldbloods/scarvet with the hell out of ítems. You need OTS & Crown of command.

Engage Ascended Karl Franz. He goes first but the models in the front Rank always must be Command Group. So he kills your unit. Then your big badass steps up. And deliver their 12 to 15 PF S7 attacks. at 4's & 2's. No AS and rerolling 4++ Ward. He should be dead.

 

[n810]

Now there's a thought....

 

[sorrowquin]

That's the first good idea Man0war, I like it.

Everything else so far is pretty much garbage.

Problem is if he sees your unit formation he will smell the turkey and probably avoid your unit. He's flying so he's most likely picking his engagements. Arc Unf is also good but you still need to get it of ...

 

[Ixt]

Doing the math in my head, it looks like Franz's many attacks bleed into the Oldblood/Scar Vets pretty much every time and (with OTS) results in a character death or two depending on your luck.

This also assumes that the unit makes it to him completely unharmed/isolates him, that he has no support/redirectors with him, and that he doesn't get his spell off in the magic phase (which he can six-dice at no penalty). I guess you could scroll it if he doesn't miscast or rolls poorly. I dunno.

Is there some rule exploit going on with your tactic that disallows his attacks/spell from reaching the cowboys, Manowar? I don't play buses, so I don't know. Exploits aside, the idea has just as many variables as others.

Steadfast is our friend here imo. He'll have to come to you, which he will. Infantry set behind likely charges ought to penalize his aggression, and give enough time to set up a counter (especially if AU already got off).

 

[borkbork]

Doing the math in my head, it looks like Franz's many attacks bleed into the Oldblood/Scar Vets pretty much every time and (with OTS) results in a character death or two depending on your luck.

If he has to target the unit wounds never flow over to the characters.
And arent Multiple wounds just lost on single wound models?

 

[SilverFaith]

the items explicitly reference wizards.

bounds spell use doesn't make you a wizard.

Also if u read your rules, Rippers have armour piercing rule even if the kiling blow doesnt work id love to see the opponents face when you field 800 pts of rippers aka 20ish....

Armour piercing only reduces the armour by 1. Not all that impressive, honestly.

Thought "wizard" just referred to someone casting a spell. Can't quite find it in the book, but I was pretty sure it doesn't need to have actual caster levels to apply. Could be wrong though, I've never seen the hex scroll used, ever.


And yeah, multiwounds only apply to multiwound models. Against a unit with 1 wound on each model, the multiwounds are useless.

EDIT:

I have skip half the thread to just answer how a cold one bus could do it.

Its risky but with Crown of command it is safer.


5 coldone riders with champion, musician & banner, requires low number. Set them in formation of 3 x 2 (or more)
add your 3 oldbloods/scarvet with the hell out of ítems. You need OTS & Crown of command.

Engage Ascended Karl Franz. He goes first but the models in the front Rank always must be Command Group. So he kills your unit. Then your big badass steps up. And deliver their 12 to 15 PF S7 attacks. at 4's & 2's. No AS and rerolling 4++ Ward. He should be dead.

4+ to hit
With GWs, 2+ to wound

4+ to save with his ward

Let's say 15 attacks. That means about 7,5 hits, generating 2,5 additional attacks, of which 1,25 also hits. Lets round up, and say 9 hits.

2+ to hit, so that is reduced by 1,5, leaving us at 7,5 wounds. After his rerolled ward save, he takes about 5 wounds.

That is not enough. He'll wipe out your guys afterwards. He needs 3s to hit, and a single hit will kill a scar vet instantly, no to-wound roll or save at all, and an oldblood is very likely to die as well. OTS works against you, and forces you to reroll your own ward saves (Aside from the character wielding the OTS), so you are insanely fragile.

 

[Ixt]

Doing the math in my head, it looks like Franz's many attacks bleed into the Oldblood/Scar Vets pretty much every time and (with OTS) results in a character death or two depending on your luck.

If he has to target the unit wounds never flow over to the characters.
And arent Multiple wounds just lost on single wound models?

10 attacks, wounding automatically, no armor, 3+ to hit (6-7 hits) = 5 dead Cold One Riders. No multi-wound necessary.

1-2 more hits left over, applied to characters now. With OTS working against you, 4+ wards probably fail (at least 1). A vet probably dies on the multi-wound roll (66% chance).

This is all with the absence of his bound spell, which would likely ping off 2 Cold One Riders (at least) before combat if it casts.

Aside from everything this scenario assumes, doesn't it cost nearly as much as him? That's a lot to pay for a 'no-guarantees' tactic...

5 COR w/ FC, 2 Vets/Oldblood all kitted out? 350ss at the very least, isn't it?

 

[n810]

probably add another wound for the cold ones attacks.

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

But if one has a cold one bus and characters, he can only target a single model per close combat right?, assumminig he is in base contact with the characters only?

 

[hdctambien]

10 attacks, wounding automatically, no armor, 3+ to hit (6-7 hits) = 5 dead Cold One Riders. No multi-wound necessary.

1-2 more hits left over, applied to characters now. With OTS working against you, 4+ wards probably fail (at least 1). A vet probably dies on the multi-wound roll (66% chance).

If all of his attacks are at the same initiative he can't split them between the unit and the characters. The characters won't stepup until that initiative step is over. Plus, you have to declare where all your attacks for the initiative step are going to go before you roll for any of them. So you can't roll 7 attacks against the unit then decide to roll the last 3 against characters that are now exposed.

Let's say 15 attacks. That means about 7,5 hits, generating 2,5 additional attacks, of which 1,25 also hits. Lets round up, and say 9 hits.

2+ to hit, so that is reduced by 1,5, leaving us at 7,5 wounds. After his rerolled ward save, he takes about 5 wounds.

That is not enough.

Since the idea is to kill him before he ever attacks the Saurus ... why give them ward saves? If you've got 3 characters that get one chance to attack I'd make sure they've got:

- Other Tricker's Shard
- The Piranha Blade (trading +2str for d3 wounds ... not sure if that evens out or not)
- Blade of Realities (what ward save?)

I haven't run any numbers, but I think points should be invested in the combat efficiency rather than survivability of the units. (Also, if you kill Franz, you don't need the crown of command! .. and if you don't kill Franz, your best chance to if out flee him because you won't survive the next round of combat)

 

[n810]

yea, good idea, just give them all offensive gear, and maybe just a shield and light armor, incase they survive.
(all that gimmicky stuff we usually pass up for defense)

 

[Ixt]

Ahh.. I didn't know that that's how buses worked. That's some pretty gamey stuff, right there. =l

 

[Man0waR]

People tend to complain instead of bring fresh ideas.

just few tips for those eager to complain:

A) Bait with expensive characters/units and then issue challenge with a champion, next round charge with sharpened horns stegadon/s
----> Combine with lore of life to bring back the champion in your turn. / join 1 or 2 naked skink chief to the unit to ensure you wont mess the plan with a failed charge.

B) Lore of metal: Gehennas hound, underated spell since allow Look Out Sir. 2d6 vs armour no AS hits destroy steam tanks , kills one model of mounstrous cavalry and put a hurt into AKF.
----> Combine with signature for further pain against the empire.

C) Torch against flyers: Reroll succesfull hits. 1's & 2's to hit happens. Reduce to half the number of successfull hits.

D) Lore of Shadows. Okhams mind razor. Bring massive blocks of saurus with spears. just move forward without fear, if not casted at the first chance, youll stay long enough to achieve it.
Enfeeble foe: Reduce Toughness of AKF and see how S3/4 goes through him like an elf. (if okhams fail)

E) Council of Heavens: Uranor Thunderbolt, Chain Lighning will score some wounds on AKF. but more important is you can spam iceshard blizzard to make Karl Franz to strike at 5's,6's with ease in a magic phase. Combine with curse of midnight and he is almost done. Also combine with C)
each spell deals d6 S4. So additional chances to score more wounds.

F) Savage Skink of Horros: Front arc of Skink chief with additional hand weapon. (44 points each)
Bastiladon nearby to boost Initiative to 7. Pop up boosted Savage beast of horros and deal 5*7=35 attacks at 4's 2's.
Sincé they should be in a huge cohort they will survive anything in shooting and mostly magic.
----> bring a champion for sacrifice first turn until you set up the spell. Also you can sacrifice one of your chiefs too.

G) Should I continue?

 

[JamJar]

Savage Skink of Horros: Front arc of Skink chief with additional hand weapon.
Bastiladon nearby to boost Initiative to 7. Pop up boosted Savage beast of horros and deal 5*7=35 attacks at 4's 2's.
Sincé they should be in a huge cohort they will survive anything in shooting and mostly magic.
----> bring a champion for sacrifice first turn until you set up the spell. Also you can sacrifice one of your chiefs too.

I'm really interested in how a bunch of Skink Chiefs would go against him.

We'd need 4-5 Chiefs (4 plus one refused challenge, if any). With additional hand weapons and Savage Beasts buff that's 7 attacks at S7. Hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s, 4++ save to make (hey, his 4++ could have been taken away ).

The 4 Chiefs will die and unit is thunderstomped.

All other cohorts attack (not expecting too much from them though).


To make sure we kill him lets make another round of combat: A single unit of 10 Chiefs - 4 fighting at a time. They deal damage & die, cohorts soak up the thunderstomp. Next Chiefs move up for next round of combat.


How many wounds on average can we get from the 4 chiefs attacking at the same time?