7th Ed. Just a slight whine.

[Sandman130]

SO,

1500 pt. game against dark elves. Now I know they are tier one, however, what happened in that game shouldn't be possible. The situation is as follows:

A darkelf cold one unit 7 strong with a magical BSB came up a flank. I baited him by a flee reaction next to impassable terrian. I shift a FULL 18 man with spears, music and standard saurus unit to be within charge distance. To hold the cold ones in place I charge a lone salamander and his crew into the flank of the cold ones. As predicted, salamander breaks and is distroyed by the terrian, BUT, it allowed me a rear charge on the unit with my entire saurus block. Long story short, the BSB had a hydra banner giving the unit so much killing power that even the best infantry in the game, with a rear charge was broken in three rounds, and run down. They then charged a second unit in the flank and ran those down too. In total, around a 700pt swing for my opponent.

Even then, it was only a minor victory for him so I'm not to sad, but serious now.

ok. just needed to get that off my mind.

 

[Wolf]

The Hydra Banner gives the unit containing the banner (must be on a BSB) an extra attack in the first round of close combat. Wait until your opponent decides to field a Cauldron of Blood as well and gives an extra attack to the Knights who then get a charge of. Lets assume it's a five man unit and the BSB (who has a lance). That comes down to 20 S6 attacks (21 with a Champion) with a high WS and Hatred (and another 12 S4 with Hatred), there's not a lot that's able to stand up to that... Assuming he's hitting on 3's, he's getting 18,6667 S6 hits through... enough said.

 

[Samick]

...Assuming he's hitting on 3's, he's getting 18,6667 S6 hits through... enough said.

Lol, if a unit got 18 thousand attacks on me, I would be a sad panda

 

[erians]

The Hydra Banner gives the unit containing the banner (must be on a BSB) an extra attack in the first round of close combat. Wait until your opponent decides to field a Cauldron of Blood as well and gives an extra attack to the Knights who then get a charge of. Lets assume it's a five man unit and the BSB (who has a lance). That comes down to 20 S6 attacks (21 with a Champion) with a high WS and Hatred (and another 12 S4 with Hatred), there's not a lot that's able to stand up to that... Assuming he's hitting on 3's, he's getting 18,6667 S6 hits through... enough said.

Well the unit unit got charged so those attacks are made at S4, and it doesnt appear like he had any CoB or it should've been mentioned by the OP. In this case it was a 6+BSB unit, which dish out 4 S4 attacks per regular rider (2 from the mount) which means 13 S4 with a champ, 11.46 hits, 3.8 gets through the save if the saurus uses spears, then the cold ones kills another 3.5 saurus with their 14 attacks and the BSB does ~1 wound, a total of ~8.5 kills, less with hand weapon + shield. The saurus on the other hand were charging so unless the CoKs had a ASF flag then the saurus should've done 1.4 wounds on the charge, so if they get a little lucky they remove as much as 8 S4 attacks, which means at least 2 less saurus dead (so +2 ranks, +2 rear charge, +1 outnumber, +1 standard and +2 kills vs +2 standards, +6 kills, making it a draw!). Even with only 1 kill the saurus should lose by around 1 which they should hold, especially with a bsb close. Next round of combat the knights strike first, but then its no hate and no hydra bsb, which means the 4 regular knights and 1 champ kills 1.33 saurus, COs kills 1.0 and BSB kills 0.66 saurus, a total of 3 kills. Now the saurus fights with spears but as they lost around 9 models there are only 9 left, all get to strike, killing 2 kngihts back, leaving the 3 knights and the BSB alive and getting +2 for rear, +1 for standard, +1 for numbers and +2 for kills vs +2 standards and +3 for kills, so now the CoKs lose with 1. Next round CoKs kills 0.66 from CO, 0.88 from knights and champ, 0.66 from BSB scoring 2.2 kills leaving 7 saurus. 10 attacks back, killing 1.11 knights. Rounding both down the knights get 2+2 CR vs 1+1+1+2, winning by 1 again. Next round the CoKs does 0.66+0.66+0.5, 1.82 kills (the COs strike after saurus now tho). 6 saurus left before CoKs kills, only 5 in BTB so 10 attacks kiiling 1.1 kngihts. Saurus are down to 4 man and dont get rear or numbers now so its 2+2 vs 1+1, which means the saurus have decent chance of breaking. If they hold the COKs does 0.66+0.22+0.33, around 1 dead saurus while the last 3 saurus dish out 6 attacks, most likley killing the last CoK. The BSB will probably chop the last saurus down another 2 rounds.

Summary of long pointless mathematical rant: These calculations doesnt take everything in consideration and makes a few assumptions, but the result is still pretty accurate. Both units should have killed each other, leaving only the BSB alive. Your dice were simply against you.

Long story short, the BSB had a hydra banner giving the unit so much killing power that even the best infantry in the game, with a rear charge was broken in three rounds, and run down.

Saurus are far faaaar from the best inf in the game, I promise you that if those knights were charged by ASF BGs, Chaosen Khorne Warriors with Great weapons or a unit of Swordmasters with a Loec equipped Champ they would've been desimated.

As a Dark Elf player I can say that the CoK star is very bad against good opponents. You clearly outplayed him completly and managed to get a charge off into the Move 7 knights, and into the rear no less! The key the charging the fighty dark elves is getting them in the flank instead of the rear. I've been rear charged because I've been forced to a bad presues due to hatred and gotten rear charged with my Black Guards a ton of times but they always kill like 10 rank and file and win anyway, something that wouldn't be possible in my 2 models wide flank (or in the CoKs case a 1 model wide flank). The CoK unit is however 410 pts bound up in 1 unit, 600 VPs thanks to banners, with a total of 9 T3 wounds with 2+ or 1+ save. Anything that reduces save (kroxigors, burning blade) or negates it completly (Engine, Rod of the storm, thunderbolt) will decimate that unit.

 

[Bibamus]

cavlary should indeed be charged in the flank, when only 1 model is in base to base. unless that is a champion the unit is pretty much broken, or in case of undead, dead. i charged a unit of blood knights wih a vampire with my saurus, killed 1, and because of the static the whole unit died.
also, saurus are one of the best infantry in the game, when they get charged. their true strenght is their spears, wich means they have to get charged to fight in 2 ranks. the best solution against that kind of unit is the EotG, lore of metal and uranons thudnerbolt. i met it a couple of times and last time i killed it by a front charge from the EotG + flank charge from a single scar vet with BBoC. impact hits + burning alignment + 3 additional S6 attacks + 4 S5 attacks that reduces his armor by 4 is the key to killing any knight uni out there.

 

[JohnMavrick]

their true strenght is their spears, wich means they have to get charged to fight in 2 ranks.

I couldn't agree more. I normally do not like spear armed troops from my other armies I've played but you just can't beat Saurus Warriors with Spears. I'm not even sure if I'll build a unit with hw/sh.

 

[Batu]

I agree. Cold One Riders are great cavalry and definitly infantry shredders due to their 3 attacks. LM CoR will do the same thing to most infantry.

I will comment on the author of the threds unit size. 18 saurus is not good. Saurus should run 6x4 and will typically have 25 attacks base and full Static Combat results.

While I do not agree that Dark Elves are scary, or in the same league as the DoC or possibly the VC, they do have some good units.

cavlary should indeed be charged in the flank, when only 1 model is in base to base. unless that is a champion the unit is pretty much broken, or in case of undead, dead. i charged a unit of blood knights wih a vampire with my saurus, killed 1, and because of the static the whole unit died.
also, saurus are one of the best infantry in the game, when they get charged. their true strenght is their spears, wich means they have to get charged to fight in 2 ranks. the best solution against that kind of unit is the EotG, lore of metal and uranons thudnerbolt. i met it a couple of times and last time i killed it by a front charge from the EotG + flank charge from a single scar vet with BBoC. impact hits + burning alignment + 3 additional S6 attacks + 4 S5 attacks that reduces his armor by 4 is the key to killing any knight uni out there.

 

[skinker]

sorry but 6x4 is way too many saurus. 6x3 at the most.

 

[Gor-rok]

While 6x3 saurus is pretty standard, 6x4 can be a great setup depending on what you're playing against and how you position them. If I know I'm going to get charged by something big and nasty I'll take all the extra staying power I can get. It just becomes that much more important to support the unit once you've invested so many points into it.

As long as the unit performs what you want it to do, I don't think there's any such thing as too big or too small.

 

[Batu]

sorry but 6x4 is way too many saurus. 6x3 at the most.

Problem with 6x3 is they simply do not have the numbers to support the static combat resolution.

After the first turn it will start falling behind. ranks bonus, outnumbering etc. and unless you are fighting non elite units (empire spearmen) the larger units will win. It is simply the math. Run a unit of 18 into units of elites and then run a unit of 24 into a unit and see which breaks first.

Let alone if you take shooting/magic casualties prior to getting into combat. 15 saurus with a static combat resolution of 1 (standard) + 1 rank is just not scary and going to get crushed by a full unit of anything with similar stats or doing high wounds.

The end result will typically be a lost unit. loosing by a couple your still trying to test on a 6

The first turn of combat if you have not sustained any casualties your correct. 18 is fine. however once you lose a few...well that unit is not combat effective.

 

[JohnMavrick]

There are advantages and disadvantages to both sizes of units. 6x4 is nice for staying power and ensuring that you'll have the +4 SCR for ranks and outnumbering but they are expensive and most vet LM players find the unit too large and expensive. But I definately agree with the staying power of the 6x4 formation. Not only that but it will also make your opponent groan as he sees this massive unit plopped down in your deployment zone!

The 6x3 is less expensive and easier to wield but then if that unit is targeted by lots of magic and shooting you will quickly fall behind on that SCR. However the up side is that if your opponent is focusing on bringing down that unit the rest of your army is escaping unscathed. This does happen to be the the unit size of choice (besides 5x3 and 6x2) for many vet LM players. I'm not convinced this is a coincidence as I've had pretty good luck with the 6x3 set up.

 

[hellbreaker]

I personally prefer a unit of 5x4 myself. A tad more manoeuvrable.
And HW/SH saurus are great for supporting your spear saurus. Use them like Empire detachments and try forcing a charge on your spears unless the unit charging will obliterate them before they can react of course.

Cheers!