8th Ed. Jungle Swarms: Worthwhile or Waste?

[Agrem]

I have found those swarms to be their weight in gold. I usually add either two or three bases to my lists.

The reasoning behind this is their price. You get those three at the cost of two skirmish skink units. They are smaller than skirmish skinks so I find them to be more mobile even though with the lower movement value. Because their small footprint they can go into places that the skirmishers wouldn't fit.

Also they are unbreakable which means that they can easily redirect big terror causing monsters also even without slann being nearby and if by some miracle they survive the first round of combat (counting the unstable too) they will tie the opponent even further.

As mentioned I get more of them than skirmisher skinks and therefore one more deployment drop. This suits my playstyle since I want to "win" those deployment phases so I can set up my main combat units where I want to.

I started to use these even before the new FAQ came up and I don't think that it changes much anything with the swarms. The FAQ has much bigger effect on spirit hosts and other ethereal creatures.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

THREAD I SUMMON THEE!

Any examples in how to generally use Swarms effectively? Surely anything that charges a Swarm is likely to crush and overrun it, making it difficult for me to see how you'd use them as decoys and such.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Scour the rule book for any advantage your units can give. The following special rule, which applies to jungle swarms, should be found on page 67.5

 

[Arli]

Jungle swarms were recently faq'd to the extent that a unit cannot overrun them now. They unit will stop where the swarm was. Not sure of the exact wording, but I think that is how it works.

That makes them slightly better, but still not really worth fielding, in my opinion.

 

[Tecuani]

Unfortunately, the faq was only that a unit can't overrun if it kills it's opponents through combat resolution, including a swarm which dies through crumble. Killing the swarms outright and then overrunning is still permitted, and at toughness two quite likely unless you have two or three in single file, which starts getting expensive. Probably more efficient to buy two units of one swarm and place one behind the other.
Still, a unit can only overrun straight forwards or reform after winning combat, so a swarm very close in front of them is still a big limit on their movement options and, with faster units, a reduction in overall movement forwards. You can also choose which unit they get to overrun into, and set up counter charges. So a lone jungle swarm still has some value there, and being a single model makes it easy to put them where you want. I see little point in larger units though-two is nearly as easy to kill as one, and any more ceases to be expendable, and will still die very quickly in combat.
Also, we have several other fast and relatively inexpensive units like terradons, lone hunting packs, or small krink units that can be used in an expendable manner if necessary, but are also capable of filling several other roles if their sacrifice isn't necessary, and I tend to prefer that versatility over a jungle swarm, which can do almost nothing *except* sacrifice itself to gain board position.

 

[PlasmaDavid]

Can't seem to find the FAQ reference at all, any help?

That's a good point about moving them up right into the enemies face. I've got a fair few swarms, for rule-of-cool factor, and so want to get good use out of them!

I guess the whole "one round tar pit" thing is so you can get your Saurus up for a reliable charge range mostly? Surely they'd also be fine attacking smaller units of enemy archers and such.

 

[Tecuani]

Can't seem to find the FAQ reference at all, any help?

Page nine of the main rulebook faq, in the combat section. It's a general ruling on *any* unit which disintegrates rather than fleeing, but swarms being unstable are one of the units it can potentially apply to.

That's a good point about moving them up right into the enemies face. I've got a fair few swarms, for rule-of-cool factor, and so want to get good use out of them!

I guess the whole "one round tar pit" thing is so you can get your Saurus up for a reliable charge range mostly?

More about slowing a unit down, gaining an extra turn of attrition from salamanders etc, or making sure you have units well placed to countercharge, which if an opponent overruns into you is possible to do in the first rather than second round out of combat.

Surely they'd also be fine attacking smaller units of enemy archers and such.

I'm afraid you overestimate them here-a swarm has 5 attacks at S2, even a normal human archer has S3, will attack with 4 models, or 8 in two ranks, and has a better initiative. That's against human archers, which are nearly the weakest kind. Against skinks, they're about evenly matched, and on a good day could tackle a 3-man warmachine crew, but anything tougher will have a definite advantage over them.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Scour the rule book for any advantage your units can give. The following special rule, which applies to jungle swarms, should be found on page 67.5

Brilliant!

 

[PlasmaDavid]

words

Hmm, thanks a lot for the advice! Looks like I'll have to get thinking about using them as tar pits, and set up units nearby that will benefit from it!

And yes, that picture got a lol out of me

 

[Moniker]

It's just that for 50 points instead of 45, I get something with twice as many wounds, ranged poisoned attacks, has a 6+ save, a Parry save, a rank bonus and the ability to disrupt flanks and for another 6 points I can grab a musician for maneuverability.

I figure that unit can do anything a swarm can, and so much more.

 

[Arli]

I agree with you. It would be a nice addition to the army to have a more usable swarm. Something with a rule or cost that makes using it viable.

 

[T`hinker`er]

It's just that for 50 points instead of 45, I get something with twice as many wounds, ranged poisoned attacks, has a 6+ save, a Parry save, a rank bonus and the ability to disrupt flanks and for another 6 points I can grab a musician for maneuverability.

I figure that unit can do anything a swarm can, and so much more.

These are excellent points, and I have long thought that the proper cost of the lizard swarm should be 25 points. One can only hope that the design studio is following along with this thread.

I would add that against Dwarf shooting and any high str opponent, where the 6+ save is useless, and the chances of actually using that rank bonus are 10 to 1 against you, the unbreakable nature of the swarm and its smaller base and greater maneuverability over the 10 man skink cohort do give it some advantages...not on a par with the poisoned shooting, but then again the swarm is the only unit in the Lizardman army with poisoned HtH attacks.

Does anyone have a decent Warhammer/math-hammer spreadsheet? I am curious as to how many lizard swarms it would take to reliably stop and/or kill a steamtank.

 

[n810]

Not sure,But you are difinately going to want to cast mind razor on them for
ST10 poisoned attacks TO EVEN STAND A CHANCE.
(I think the unit is capped at 6 ???) so probaly 4 units of 6 would be needed.
(one per side)
Edit: doh I forgot Swarms aren't 1-0 per amy any more.

 

[Tecuani]

More than that. 6 Swarms *if* they charge(unlikely) will average a grand total of one and a half wounds before being squashed, give or take a small fraction either way. Reasons for this are-
Poison doesn't go through a 1+ save.
All those wounds the steam tank does in it's own turn get doubled by the unstable rule
Swarms only have one supporting attack, so in a six swarm unit you'd get a grand total of three attacks for the second rank.
Without going into too much tedious mathematics, I think the absolute minimum to have any serious chance would be 3 full units of six attacking at once-one to the front and one to either side. Even that seems chancy since the wounds from unstable apply in full to each seperate unit. That's 810 points of swarms, and a very generous assumption that the steam tank will drive right between the three of them to set up your combo-charge.

 

[T`hinker`er]

Right, right. I am thinking to fail 10 x 1+ saves, you need to cause 60 wounds vs. T6, but I was forgetting that the swarms would crumble before you could do that. The old rule where they sucked at killing anything, but were unbreakable, was my favorite, tactically speaking. Back in 4th edition when I was the only Skaven player in my whole area, I would often throw 3 "half price" rat swarms at my enemy's baddest unit just to hold it up while the rest of my army evened the odds. Oh well...I'm showing my age, I guess

 

[PlasmaDavid]

My Jungle Swarms *almost* were great in a game yesterday. Had them in a position where the Bret opposition didn't really have any better option than charging them. Swarm had 5+ Regen due to Lore of Life from my Slann (though on further reading that spell is only meant to target the wizards unit...) so actually survived a lot of wounds. They would have left the Brets sitting in charge range for some of my Saurus, but my Skrox unit next door got blitzed so the jungle swarms were overrun into by another unit as well. Which meant death.

You have to wonder if they added in that FAQ just to try to make Swarms actually useful as a speed bump. I can see it might be fun to try different buffs on swarms, as long as it's not really stealing the buffs from other units in combat.