8th Ed. Is my 1600 pt list really bad?

[themuffinman873]

We recently had a "tournament", more like a round-robin of battles and I have never been crushed so badly. I played O&G, DE (corsair deathstar), and a VC player who had not played in almost 2 years.

The list:
----------------------------------
Slann
-Wandering Deliberations
-Book of Ashur

Scarvet (LA,Shld)
-BSB
-Sacred Steg Helm (mainly for the +1 T)

20x saurus warriors (std and music)
- hand weapons

11x skink skirm (jav)
11x skink skirm (jav)
11x skink skirm (jav)

Bastilladon (lazer)

20x Temple Guard
-litchbone standard

Salamander +1 snack
-------------------------------------

The idea was to maximize annoyance with WD and skinks, and bringing my opponent in close to deal with the sally, then double charging with saurus & TG bunker.

O&G was a sort of close game, but I just got tarpit to death as WD has nothing useful against large units.

DE was going great until his corsair deathstar unit ran into my TG, then it was over pretty fast.

VC was great at the start with skinks tearing apart his lame flank units, but by the end there were more points on the board than he started with. I am not sure if I made a big tactical mistake, but I lined up my units flush in front of water so that when he charged me he lost all rank bonus and was engaged with two units (saurus and bastilladon). Was hoping to win out in CR to smash his unit with instability. What I did not realize is he can raise like a dozen skeles in every unit in every magic phase. Also a 2 dice IF with a dimensional cascade did not help my TG block at all.

I think my saurus unit is too small for sure, even at 1600 points. My confidence in the slann is misplaced (2 failed to cast first two turns, IF the third) and should therefore place fewer eggs in his basket (or none at all at 1600).

I unfortunately dont have terradons, chameleons, or stegs. What should I drop from the list?

 

[Pinktaco]

I personally think the frog is too expensive at that point level. Wait for 2000pts IMO. ESPECIALLY with the 100pts stuff you gave him. You're spending 1/4th of your army on ONE model who's also a mage.. and we all know how unreliable the damn winds of magic can be.

So without the slann you free up 400pts. The BSB is needed though and you need something else wizard-wise. If you're feeling ballsy you can go with a single level 2 skink priest w/ scroll along with the bastiladon.

The scar vet should've definatetly have had the armour of destiny + GW instead and been put on a CO. It lets him be quite mobil, hard hitting and tanky on the same time. Our cowboys are quite scary since they're so cheap (150pts for a mobile 4A, S7, T5 model is quite nice).

Also, I'd try and cut the core points so it just fits the limit. Our core units aren't considered the best so uhm.. this is what I've come up with:

Total: 1598pts

Hero 434pts:
SV BSB
Priest lvl 2, scroll
Priest lvl 2, cube

Core 404pts
24 sauru + mus/banner
10 skink skirmisher
10 skink cohort

Special 592pts
28 templeguards, full command
5 COR + musician, banner

Rare 168pts
1 x 2 salamanders + snack


So after making the list I realized that I had too many points in special. I ditched the poor bast and added another priest. About that - as you've probably realized the one with the highest leadership also appears to have the BSB, so this means that one of your priests will be your general!
So for that reason I decided to make a single cohort unit of skinks. The idea is that you skink priest/general will be walking right behind your lines. Hexes and augments don't need line of sight per the faq so you could effectively have you priests right behind your saurus blocks and throw wyssans wildform at them and iceshard blizzard on whoever decided to go up against your blocks.

So what else? The BSB goes into the COR bus. It's a bit squishy (only ONE Look Out Sir due to low numbers), but on the other hand I've buffed your templeguards to a beautiful size that'll tear down most.

personally I'm also of the belief that if you're going to do somehing, do it properly, which is why I decided to give you 2 units of salamanders. One is good, two is great. These guys will tear down those huge blocks you're facing and the templeguards are there to clean whatever is left up.

Also.. Maybe you should consider dropping the champion in the templeguard unit. Why? Because that would give you just enough points to have another saurus. Our saurus are good against other T3/S3 core units, but I think you'll be and feel more safe by having 25 sword/shield warriors in a 5 x 5 formation. This'll allow them to have one more rank than you previously had along with the 6+ parry. These guys are just meant to hold stuff up while your support (COR) flanks. So in other words: saurus warriors = anvil, COR bus = hammer.

The 28 templeguards should be deployed 6 wide and 4 deep + another 4 models. They should be able to take care of themselves.

IF you know that you'll be facing heavy cavalry (AS 1+ mainly) you can consider dropping some of the guards and get the razorbanner for armour piercing. S5 + AP is no joke, even against AS1+ (will be modified to 4+). Pop wyssans wildform on them and watch them wreck face.

The downside of this army is that you lack skink skirmishers AND no anti warmachine units. So if you want to remove something that's up to you. You could remove the Cold One on the scar vet, put him in the guard unit and remove the COR to open up points for some cameleons.

So all in all it's still the same army just without the (expensive!) frog and some beefed up units. As I wrote previously - if you want to do it, do it right. I don't like to have "one of those, and.. one of those.." units. I meana single bastiladon and a single salamanders? For the points you can have 2 salamanders + snacks OR an ancient stegadon (which will be much more intimidating).. Anyway enough of that, I think you get my point.

Also one last thing.. I don't think your list was bad, bad.. It just needs optimizing.. You don't HAVE to take the list I wrote, just consider some of it and make the best of it.

**EDIT**

The very last thing, I promise

I see you had an unfortunate dimensional cascade. I usually play at 2500pts and even there such a thing is quite tragic. I've come to the conclusion that the slann shouldn't be in the guard unit. It's just TOO expensive to risk. So with the setp I have you, you don't risk that. Blowing up skinks aren't that big of a deal

 

[themuffinman873]

What is the idea behind the cohort? If I lose just 1 then I can't disrupt ranks from a flank right?
Oic a preist bunker.. I always tend to bunker with skirmishes for that -1 vs shooting and less collateral dmg from IF, and maneuverability (free reforms). Not worth the 20 pts?

 

[Pinktaco]

What is the idea behind the cohort? If I lose just 1 then I can't disrupt ranks from a flank right?
Oic a preist bunker.. I always tend to bunker with skirmishes for that -1 vs shooting and less collateral dmg from IF, and maneuverability (free reforms). Not worth the 20 pts?

Depends if you can find the points for it, but yeah sure. Also I would like to point out that I'd stay at close to the minimum as possible (400pts). When I look at the list I gave you I realize that there are a bit too much in hereos - taking off the level 2 upgrade would fix that..

 

[Sunchax]

I came in on second place in a 1600 pts tournament, facing ogre kingdom, Tomb kings & spider riders with this list:

Lords:
Oldblood: crown of command, coldone, armor of fortune, great weap.

Heros:
Scar-vet: Great weap, cold one, armor of destiny, Battle standard.
Scar-vet: Light armor, great weap, Dragon helm, luckstone.
Skink priest, dispell scroll.

Core:
Saurus warriors, x24 full command.
skink skirmish: x10
Skink skirmish: x10

Special:
cham skinks: x7
Cham skinks: x6

Rare:
Ancient steg: sharpend horns.
Salamander hunting pack

I feel that lizardman are really hard hitting in close combat in 1600 pts.

 

[GCPD]

What is the idea behind the cohort? If I lose just 1 then I can't disrupt ranks from a flank right?

Chaff. Facing those big, unmanageable hordes, you need something that can run in the way and either permanently redirect them (using multiple cheap units throughout the game), or expose a flank charge to something that can run in and beat them up. Without Terradons, your sole recourse to do this is cheap units of Skinks. Skirmishers are ideal because of their maneuverability, but they are pricey - Cohorts are a bit cheaper, but aren't as maneuverable, although they can hold up single model monsters, characters and chariots for a while. Both have their strengths, so bring both. Use them as bunkers in the early game if you wish, and rotate your Priests from one unit to the next as they are thrown in the path of something you aren't ready to fight. Neither of them are intended to get into combat and achieve anything of worth: that's for the Saurus.

Otherwise, I think that you have already identified where your list had problems: too many eggs in one expensive basket, and combat units that are too small. At this points level, I'd look to an Oldblood or Scar-Vet as my general, with one or two Priests in tow, and a cheap Skink Chief BSB.

Modifying your list only slightly, I'd look at:

Saurus Oldblood on a Cold One: couple of build options available. You probably want at least a 1+ armour save with a 4+ ward; however, you may want a magic weapon to deal with ethereal (Ogre Blade or Sword of Might are ideal), and probably the Charmed Shield just to ward off that first cannon.
Level 2 Skink Priest, Beasts, Dispel Scroll.
Skink Chief BSB - either Dragonhelm or Dragonbane Gem and Enchanted Shield, depending on what you give your Oldblood. He's not a combat character: find him a safe place to hide to give the re-rolls.

24 Saurus, Full Command.
10 Skirmishers
10 Cohort

Bastiladon with blasty beam.
1-2 Salamanders.
25ish Temple Guard, Full Command, Banner of your choice (Discipline, Swiftness, Gleaming or Eternal Flame are all solid choices).

Alternately, downgrade the Oldblood to a Scar-Vet and promote the Chief to a Scar-Vet as well - both on Cold Ones and Great Weapons and 1+ armour saves, and Wards where possible.