AoS Idea for preventing cheeses

[Lord Sa'rk]

So I read that if we only field a slann at the beginning we could claim suden death and then summon a whole army just to secure that objective (assassination, endure, whatever)

But, I wasn't sure we could summon a unit that we don't have already in game, because its warscroll wouldn't be active.

Which brings us to my idea:
We could field just the slann but have the other warcrolls active so they would count for the initial model count and also be summonable (provided that we need to have an active warscroll in order to summon an unit).

Hope I managed to explain myself properly, and it's not looking like just a pile of gibberish.

And please, let me ear your thoughts on this and how you might actually make it work.

 

[Ixt]

I can't help but wonder if fielding a lone Slann results in an automatic defeat in the event of your losing the Slann to the enemy, no matter how much you've summoned.

So, let's say that your opponent deploys 70 models. You deploy the Slann. You choose Sudden Death, maybe Assassinate or something.

Your Slann manages to summon 6 Kroxigor, 2 units of 3 Salamanders, 20 Saurus, 5 Temple Guard, and a Battle Standard Bearer by turn 2. Your opponent, at this point, will be able to charge next turn.

However, one of their units somehow makes its way into the backfield to attack your Slann, or maybe they simply shoot at your Slann.

Your Slann, by any means, dies on turn 3. The rest of your army (100% summoned) is still standing.

Now what? Well, if we consult the rules...

"... if one
player lost 75% of their starting models, and
the other player lost 50%, then the player
that only lost 50% of their models could
claim a minor victory."

Err... hold up -- you just lost 100% of your starting models. Does that count as your entire army?

You do still have models -- the ones that you've summoned, and you do have a Sudden Death objective. Do the summoned models count for purposes of fulfilling Sudden Death? I guess that this outcome "is not obvious." Let's dig deeper, in that case.

You've summoned models in previous turns, and those models are still on the board, right? Well, yes... but unfortunately, it doesn't help the cause:

"Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,
reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do
not count towards the number of models in
the army..."

It appears that they don't count in the slightest bit, even if you had chosen 'Endure' instead of 'Assassinate.' Because you only began with the Slann and the Slann has died, you technically have no models left on the board.

Therefore, at the very moment that your Slann dies, no matter what...

"GLORIOUS VICTORY
In the Mortal Realms battles are brutal
and uncompromising – they are fought to
the bitter end, with one side able to claim
victory because it has destroyed its foe
or there are no enemy models leŽft on the
field of battle. The victor can immediately
claim a major victory and the honours
and triumphs that are due to them, while
the defeated must repair to their lair to lick
their wounds and bear the shame of failure."

... your opponent wins a major victory because you have technically, again, lost all of your models: the summoned units simply do not count toward the number of models in your army.

So, because:

a) you've lost the only model(s) that you started with,
and b) players may not count summoned models for anything but casualties,
then c) the opponent "can immediately claim a major victory," because "there are no enemy models left on the field of battle."

I think that it results in an automatic loss: a major victory for the enemy. But, it's hard to say - it's unclear which of these rules have priority over any other. Because they're all in the same section, I think that they all share equal priority for this very purpose.

As for warscrolls being active at all times, we'll just have to wait and see. A lot of players are confused as to what they may summon, because there is little guidance offered by the current rules. Personally, I disagree with the assertion that warscrolls are always active/that you can summon whatever you please without beginning the game with it. However, it really could go either way.

But, yeah, be extremely careful when choosing to start with a low model count, in any case.

 

[Lord Sa'rk]

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. Usually I assume the game wouldn't end at that, but as you've said, if it cannot be fought until the conclusion, then I'd have to say you're right, if we do follow the rules as they are now, that would be a loss.

"sorry man, my wife called, I have to go...I still have 3 carnosaurs, a battalion of stegadons and loads of temple guard, and you only have a bloodthirster, so..."
"Not so fast! I killed your slann, so I WINS!"

That would ruin my day....

 

[Ixt]

Hmm, I hadn't thought about that. Usually I assume the game wouldn't end at that, but as you've said, if it cannot be fought until the conclusion, then I'd have to say you're right, if we do follow the rules as they are now, that would be a loss.

"sorry man, my wife called, I have to go...I still have 3 carnosaurs, a battalion of stegadons and loads of temple guard, and you only have a bloodthirster, so..."
"Not so fast! I killed your slann, so I WINS!"

That would ruin my day....

No kidding!

 

[hdctambien]

"GLORIOUS VICTORY
In the Mortal Realms battles are brutal
and uncompromising – they are fought to
the bitter end, with one side able to claim
victory because it has destroyed its foe
or there are no enemy models leŽft on the
field of battle. The victor can immediately
claim a major victory and the honours
and triumphs that are due to them, while
the defeated must repair to their lair to lick
their wounds and bear the shame of failure."

... your opponent wins a major victory because you have technically, again, lost all of your models: the summoned units simply do not count toward the number of models in your army.

You're adding words to rules again.

> "there are no enemy models leŽft on the field of battle."

That does not say "no starting enemy models left on the field". As long as you have a model left on the board (no matter how it got there) your opponent has not won a major victory.

The portion of the rules that talks about summoned units "not counting" comes later in the rule when calculating a minor victory (which is only related to the above major victory rule in that it occurs if the victory is not major), in which case summoned units count towards the numerator but not towards the denominator.

Contrast "..do not count towards the number of models in the army.." with "...enemy models leŽft on the field of battle..."

I'll give you that summoned models do not count towards the "number of models in the army" (because that is what the rule says) but they still exist as "models on the field of battle", so there is no major victory until they have been removed. And there is no minor victory until "it is not possible to fight the battle to its conclusion."

We could field just the slann but have the other warcrolls active so they would count for the initial model count and also be summonable

There is no such thing as an "active warscroll". There are models that have been deployed and models that have been left in reserve. If you brought a model and did not deploy it, then it is left in reserve (until "fate lends a hand"). Warscrolls just exist. You do not "take" them, or "activate" them, or "deploy" them. Warscrolls are not things in the game, they are just a collection of rules on how to use models.

That being said, if you want to win sudden death style, take a Slann (ideally Kroak), Chakax, and Oxyotl. You get sudden death as long as your opponent places 4 models. First turn hide Ocyotl and pick endure. Now you just have to survive until turn 6 and being him out of hiding. Use Kroak's reroll ability to try to get 2nd turn on the 6th round so that Oxy can't be killed after you unhide him.

Also, don't rely on just summoning. Do the math as your opponent deploys and after you have those 3 core models deployed, deploy the MOST models you can while keeping in sudden death territory. Starting with an extra Slann or two so that you can maximize your summoning power, but you want to have a starting army to keep from getting tabled early (1 Slann vs an entire half table of models will not summon enough models to endure). Bastiladons are pretty good for their defense and have a nice shooting attack.

Also, lots and lots (and lots and lots) of Chameleon Skinks in reserve. They don't need to be summoned, and can popup and kill wizards hiding in the back spamming the +1 Armor Save spell.

Also, don't turtle yourself in a corner. Spread your units out. Don't let your opponent swarm you. Once he gets a unit or two near your Slann you won't be able to summon anything (because everywhere in range will be within 9" of an enemy) This will most likely happen by turn 2 if you don't have anything to hold them back (for example, if you fail all of your summoning attempts!).

Finally, Endure is better than Seize Ground because your opponent can just control the terrain such that Oxy can't ambush into it.

Note: this isn't a very fun army to play against. It's not necessarily autowin, but you have to be tabled to lose.

 

[pendrake]

@Lord Sa'rk - I can't find either "active warscrolls" or "inactive warscrolls" in the rules.

BTW, I am in the " I-want-to-summon-any-LM-model-I-like whether-I-deployed-any-on-turn-one-or-not" camp. I want to use them all. I did find this: "You will need warscrolls for the models you want to use." So, I am going to bring all the LM warscrolls, because I want use some of them by summoning them later.​

@Ixt - that sounds right, except I have to wonder if the "6 Kroxigor, 2 units of 3 Salamanders, 20 Saurus, 5 Temple Guard, and a Battle Standard Bearer" would get until turn six to carry out their mission. (Assassinate or whatever.) But, I cannot find anything saying battles need to go six turns to be "...fought to the bitter end..."

> "there are no enemy models leŽft on the field of battle."

That does not say "no starting enemy models left on the field". As long as you have a model left on the board (no matter how it got there) your opponent has not won a major victory.

Gotta agree with that as well.

 

[Ixt]

models do not count towards the "number of models in the army"... but they still exist as "models on the field of battle"

That sounds very, very gamey. You have no models in your army, but you still have an army of models?

Player A begins the game with 1 model. For game purposes, their army consists of 1 model.
They summon 30 models. Their army, however, still consists of 1 model.
Player A's lone model dies. Their army has been reduced to 0 models.
If your army has zero models, then how do you have models on the field of battle?
For gaming purposes, there are no enemy models left on the field of battle, and player B wins.

Now, how is that wrong, exactly? The rules explicitly state that summoned models do not count towards numbers of models in the army, only casualties.

Also, the "models do not count..." ruling appears as a separate paragraph, at the end of the section with both rulings inside. What is preventing it, then, from applying to the previous ruling? It is, after all, the entire section's conclusion, not the conclusion to the previous paragraph.

 

[Ixt]

But, I cannot find anything saying battles need to go six turns to be "...fought to the bitter end..."

"You can continue setting up units until you
have set up all the units you want to fight in
this battle, or have run out of space. This is
your army."
Okay, I set up my Slann. I have one model in my army. Crap, my Slann just died even though I summoned stuff. My army just died, even though I summoned stuff.

"If it has not been possible to fight a battle
to its conclusion or the outcome is not
obvious, then a result of sorts can be
calculated by comparing the number of
models removed from play with the number
of models originally set up for the battle for
each army."

Crap. I just lost 100% of my army. The outcome is not obvious.

"Endure: Have at least one model
which started the battle on the
battlefield still in play at the end of the
sixth battle round."

Crap. No more Endure from me. Either way, I lost 100% of my army. Why is this not obvious?!

But, I still have models, right? Surely it's only a minor victory, or a tie if I can somehow manage to kill all of their stuff.

"Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,
reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do
not count towards the number of models in
the army, but must be counted among the
casualties an army suffers."

Good thing I already lost 100% of my models and, by extension, 100% of my army! Heck, even vice versa! No extra casualties -- oh, wait.

"because it has destroyed its foe
or there are no enemy models leŽft on the field of battle."

All of those summoned models are casualties now, because they're not part of my army... which I lost 100% of.

Starting models = army. Summoned models = not part of the army. Lose all starting models = lose army = lose game.

 

[pendrake]

Now, how is that wrong, exactly?

Well, "gaming purposes" is not a rules concept it is merely an Ixt concept.

I agree with this:

Starting models = army. Summoned models = not part of the army.

Except there is a third sub-set:

Starting models = army.

Summoned models = not part of the army.

Models on table = Starting Models + Summoned Models - Casualties (= Models Remaining on Table)
​

To get to the point of caring about which models "count towards the number of models in the army" the opposition has to eliminate all the models on the table. Basically, two dead piles required. Game is not over until everybody on one side is dead or fled.

 

[Ixt]

Models on table = Stating Models + Summoned Models - Casualties (= Models Remaining on Table)​

Interesting. Well, the principle that you can lose 100% of your army and continue playing is ridiculous. It's either poorly worded or very WAAC, buuut I guess summoner armies are just broken at the moment. After all of this, I wonder if GW intended for the spell to be "Summon: x," and therefore only castable once per turn per caster. The spell being, "Summon" and then a chosen unit. Even so, it leaves the problem of neverending Daemons.

 

[Lord Sa'rk]

There is no such thing as an "active warscroll". There are models that have been deployed and models that have been left in reserve. If you brought a model and did not deploy it, then it is left in reserve (until "fate lends a hand"). Warscrolls just exist. You do not "take" them, or "activate" them, or "deploy" them. Warscrolls are not things in the game, they are just a collection of rules on how to use.

Thank you, that was the answer I needed.

As for the Slann dying and losing 100% of my army, despite having summoned units, that should only be used to determin a minor victory, in case a game can't be played until the end.

 

[Scalenex]

While I don't think trying to manipulate sudden death rules is a good thing. You don't have to take just a Slann. You can start with the Slann and put down a few more units and just stop when you are at the maximum you can use for sudden death. Since you are taking models to summon anyway you should have units on hand to deploy with the Slann.

 

[Slanputin]

Good thread, I camembert cheesey tactics

 

[hdctambien]

Interesting. Well, the principle that you can lose 100% of your army and continue playing is ridiculous.

It seems more ridiculous to me that the game could end and I could lose even if I have 100 (summoned) models fighting on the board.

"no enemy models leftŽ on the field of battle" is a pretty simple condition to check for.

1) Look at models on the board
2) Does my enemy have any models on the board?
3) If no, then I win. If yes, then I don't win yet.

There is no part of that condition that requires the model to be "part of an army", it just has to be an "enemy model" that is "on the field of battle". This particular rule does not mention anything about your enemy's "army", it only refers to "enemy models".

Even though summoned models to not "count towards the number of models in the army" they still exist as "models on the field of battle" because they are models and they are on the field of battle.

If I summon a model and it does not count as "my model", then whose model is it? If it's not "my model" then I can literally do nothing with it:

Move Phase: "Start your movement phase by picking one of your units" ... oh drat, that summoned unit doesn't actually count as "mine"

Shooting Phase: "Pick one of your units.... each model in the unit attacks..." ... hmm, if summoned units aren't "my units" then I can't shoot with them either

Charge Phase: "Any of your units .. can make a charge move" ... they can't even charge if they aren't "my units"

Combat Phase: "The player whose turn it is picks a unit to attack with..." ... actually, this doesn't specify that I have to attack with one of "my units" .. that's, interesting.

Also, if you accept that summoned units don't count as being "in your army" for any purpose then...

Hero Phase: "...use the wizards in your army to cast spells ... other units in your army may have abilities that can be used..." If summoned units aren't "in my army" then I can't cast spells or use their abilities in the hero phase...

Battleshock Phase: "...players must take battleshock test for units from their army..." Awesome, summoned units are immune to battleshock because they don't count as being "in my army"!

If you are trying to use the rules that "models added to your army during the game do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers." for any purpose other than calculating the winner of a minor victory then I think you are you are attempting to WAAC more than those that understand that rule to apply narrowly to the minor victory calculation.

 

[Ixt]

It seems more ridiculous to me that the game could end and I could lose even if I have 100 (summoned) models fighting on the board.

I suppose that you absolutely refused to play the Blood & Glory pitched battle in 8th edition, then? After all, you can lose the match even though you've only lost, say, a single unit of 10... despite having 100+ models on the board. There is nothing ridiculous about a game delegating an abstract victory condition like that - plenty of games do it. It wasn't ridiculous for that to happen in 8th, so why is it ridiculous for AoS to do such a thing?

This is compounded further by the fact that 8th edition had no "benchmark" choice - you had to either roll before every single game, or discuss it with your opponent and choose one of six. Because of this variance (different players want different matches), is it unrealistic to suppose that AoS's current "benchmark" is similar to blood & glory? We'll know more when the big book is released, I guess.

"no enemy models leftŽ on the field of battle" is a pretty simple condition to check for.

What does "destroyed its foe" mean?

"In the Mortal Realms battles are brutal
and uncompromising – they are fought to
the bitter end, with one side able to claim
victory because it has destroyed its foe
or there are no enemy models leŽft on the
field of battle."

You've focused a lot on the 'no enemy models' thing, but could this be handled by 'destroyed its foe'? That's wide for interpretation, and one of my biggest curiosities in all of this. It seems that there are more than two ways to get a major victory (table opponent/Sudden Death), by that language.

If "destroyed its foe" doesn't mean sudden death (few objectives involve destruction, all require models), doesn't mean killing all enemy models (that comes after the 'or'), then what does it mean? Are they clarifying "destroyed its foe" with "no enemy models"? I have my doubts. They read as separate thoughts. The latter isn't placed in parentheses, it doesn't follow a comma, nothin'. Is this to be handled as "Blood & Glory"?

If I summon a model and it does not count as "my model", then whose model is it? If it's not "my model" then I can literally do nothing with it:

Actually, the rules are pretty clear that summoned models are "added to your army."

"Models added to your army during the
game (for example, through summoning,..."

They simply don't count for tallying up models, which brings me back to my original question(s)... if you lose 100% of your army (remember, summoned models don't count here), what happens? Do these models cease belonging to any army, as the army's existence depends on starting models? Would that not end the game in a way that "is not obvious"? Is this any different than "breaking" in Blood & Glory? Would your opponent have not "destroyed its foe"?

If you are trying to use the rules that "models added to your army during the game do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers." for any purpose other than calculating the winner of a minor victory then I think you are you are attempting to WAAC more than those that understand that rule to apply narrowly to the minor victory calculation.

I just wonder if this is how they meant to balance 'sudden death + summoning' lists in the same way that Blood & Glory put down players that didn't bring standards/fielded MSU in order to min/max.

Attempting to WAAC? Dude, I'm posting in an online forum, looking for clarity - nothing to lose, here. I'm not playing against anyone, nor would I force this idea (or any idea) on any of my opponents. I'm not trying to dick over my opponents just so I can say that I'd won. So you can rest assured, I guess.

Anyway, I imagine most games are gonna be prefaced with a talk about summoning, because practically every other player that I've met or otherwise encountered has had valid questions about it.

Where do you see the language which ties that paragraph specifically to minor victories? It appears that it can apply to major victories, depending on the meaning of a few phrases. I wonder about "or if the outcome is not obvious," too... that also seems to be a separate thought.

@hdctambien , you've got a pretty nice brain! I'm gonna keep prodding it, if you don't mind. I could care less whether someone decides to plop down a Slann, summon their entire army, hide Oxyotl and piss of their opponents. That's up to them. I do, however, still have questions about this rule. I e-mailed gamefaqs, though I doubt I'll get a response.

 

[Ixt]

Good thread, I camembert cheesey tactics

I hate playing games where I'm feta lot of cheese.

 

[KillerK]

If you want to stop the cheese then you must play a different game.

Apart form that the game mechanics are just incedably poorly done, it might have been a good project if it was ever finished.

 

[hdctambien]

is it unrealistic to suppose that AoS's current "benchmark" is similar to blood & glory?

If that is what GW wanted, they could have very easily been specific about that. "When all of your enemy's models that started the game on the battle field have been removed, you win a Major Victory." But instead they chose to write "there are no enemy models left on the field of battle." Which seems to me to mean that if I have any models left on the board, then you haven't won yet.

If "destroyed its foe" doesn't mean sudden death (few objectives involve destruction, all require models), doesn't mean killing all enemy models (that comes after the 'or'), then what does it mean?

Good question. Who knows what "destroying your foe" means. Is you opponent your foe? Can you win a major victory by actually destroying the human being standing on the other side of the table?

Without further explanation from GW, I don't think it's prudent to assume "destroying your foe" actually means anything.

I would guess that GW is transitioning between the "fluffy" portion of the rule to the "actual" rule in that sentence.

"In the Mortal Realms battles are brutal and uncompromising – they are fought to the bitter end, with one side able to claim victory because it has destroyed its foe or there are no enemy models leftŽ on the field of battle"

The underlined portion if "fluffly" referring to the "actual" army of soldiers defeating their foe, and then it transitions to the "rule" about models. But who knows.

They simply don't count for tallying up models, which brings me back to my original question(s)... if you lose 100% of your army (remember, summoned models don't count here), what happens? Do these models cease belonging to any army, as the army's existence depends on starting models? Would that not end the game in a way that "is not obvious"?

The difference between a "starting model" and a "non-starting model" only exists when calculating the % killed for a Minor Victory. There is nowhere else in the rules where a distinction is made between a model that is deployed on the board at the start of the game or any other time during the game.

You are attempting to define an army to be only models that were deployed at the start of the game, but that is not a rule. At best you have some innuendo from half of a sentence of a rule in the section about calculating who won the game.

Where do you see the language which ties that paragraph specifically to minor victories?

The rule in question is the last sentence in the section called "Glorious Victory" which tells me that it is a rule that only applies to this section.

It is a single sentence that talks about two things: 1) summoned models don't count towards the number of models in the army and 2) that they do count towards casualties suffered. It is a clarifying sentence as to how to calculate the % of models lost in the battle, that is the function of this rule.

The only time you ever have to tally up the models in your army is when calculating a Minor Victory.

If you are not counting models, then this rule doesn't apply. When checking for a Major Victory you do not "count models" you just have to check if "any models are on the battlefield".

I think my understanding of the rules follows Occam's Razor. I know GW has had some f'ed rules in the past (Spirit leech FAQ...) but I'm not really seeing that here.

 

[hdctambien]

They simply don't count for tallying up models, which brings me back to my original question(s)... if you lose 100% of your army (remember, summoned models don't count here), what happens?

One more point about this question...

There is no event in AoS that triggers when you "lose 100% of your army" so that distinction is like a cows opinion.

The game ends when:

1) Your enemy has no models left on the table
2) A Sudden Death requirement has been met
3) Whenever you want (in which case you calculate who wins via the Minor Victory rules which includes "not counting summoned models" except towards casualties)

if you somehow lose 100% of your army but still have models left on the table, then no game ending condition has been met yet.