8th Ed. How to win over WoC

[ollie]

What is your strategy? I have lost 4 games in a row and never won once against my buddy who plays WoC, i feel like breaking something right now.

The magic phase stinks due to his lvl 4 lord who casts awesome spells, while my slann with life can barely get anything off but miscasts in the entire fucking game. He simply pwns me in magic and pwns me in combat. He also does more damage in shooting with his hellcannon.

This is clearly a whine / cry thread but if you think in a certain way when you play WoC please reply. I try to use salamanders for the warriors. Stegadons on marauders or warriors without shield etc. Temple guard with razor standard to fight the knights and break their armour.

The amount of damage a block of 21 warriors with great weapons, mark of khorne and banner of rage can do is ridiculous. Imagine it 7 models wide with 27 total attacks against my TG block, killing 15 TG per round of combat in average while i only kill 5,7 of theirs. Avoiding this is essential but wtf!

WoC must be the creators favorite army.

 

[Arli]

Lore of Light!

Speed of light and Pha's protection for all units in 12 inches and Iceshard blizzard (hex on his unit) would be what I would do. Also, I do not know if the lore special attribute would help you (it works against chaos, but I am not sure about WoC).

Also, get Birona's timewarp off and you are rerolling your misses as well.

 

[novatomato]

also, I should think you got your targets mixed up for the sallies and the stegs.
A salamanders shot against marauders will kill 11-12 if you get a good hit, marauders also have lower leadership so the likelyhood of panic is higher. Get a unit of two sallies get two good shots in and those northmen will be cut down or dead. Against Warriors I've found that although the -3 to AS is great, the warriors are smaller so you get fewer hits, they are tougher so you get a lower hit to wound ratio, and they have a high enough leadership to ignore the panic. Also note that the warriors will almost always be in BSB range if they have one whereas marauders are generally located out on the flanks (this is based of of personal experience mind).
The Stegadons, especially ancients, will cause fewer hits on impact and thunderstomp than a good salamanders shooting, which against marauders ends up being fewer wounds while against WOC it ends up being more wounds. Ancients will give warriors without shields no armor save, same as sallies but the S6 vs S3 really shows. Regulars will give a 6+ armor save against warriors without shields but S5 will still give more wounds than the S3.
The only reason to charge the steg into the marauders is for the Terror check.

I would also suggest Lore of Light, that will make your TG rip through the WOC in combat. Alternatively Lore of Shadows, with the multitude of hexes they can turn those Khorne boys into skinks with armor.

 

[Dog On Todd]

Alternatively Lore of Shadows, with the multitude of hexes they can turn those Khorne boys into skinks with armor.

This is what I'm going to be trying!

I have a few more questions about other units vs WoC (specifically for 7th edition, but any advice would be greatly appreciated!)?

Skinks, I was thinking 2-3 units of ranked poison spear chuckers w/drummers/1 w/priest? to harass an whittle down while redirecting for countercharges and protect the flank. Is there a better setup?

Saurus, 1-2 block(s) of 25-30. Still debating scar-vet and full commands (point depending).
My question for these guys: spears vs. HWS? I want this unit to be mainly an anvil. HWS adds survivability, but with shadow hexes my spears against a charge could really wreck. Leaning towards HWS.

CoC unit of 8-9 as a hammer (opposite to my steggers)? Will these guys be effective against much in WoC?

Thanks guys!

 

[Clockwork]

I have found the following works pretty well against chaos. I've jsut started playing them recently and have a couple of victories, though I haven't fought a Hellcannon and level 4 mage yet.

Slann with life in Temple Guard with razor standard. Throne of Vines + Earthblood should see them through. Add Flesh to Stone if necessary. The -3 from halbers and razor standard will rip through chaos armour.

Skroxigors. Kept in range of general/BSB, these guys can reliably hold up 10 chaos knights. This has worked for me 2/3 times. The Knights can't kill enough skinks to deny the rank bonus quickly enough, whilst the krox bash 2-3 knights per round. The Skrox usually lose, but so long as they keep one rank they don't one easily. Also the Krox, being fear causing themselves, are immune to the Knights' fear. Buff with Flesh to Stone and renew with Regrowth if necessary.

Stegadon war spear (ancient preferably, normal works just as well). I usually leave any marauders for saurus warriors to chew on, so my Stegadon can usually be found hitting chaos warriors (and getting its wounds back from regrowth), or knights in the flank (that have been held up by skrox).

Salamanders. Always bring salamanders.

I appreciate that this might not work well for you against a hellcannon and mage lord, and I always face warriors with extra hand weapons rather than great weapons, but I hope it helps. What spell lore is he using, incidentally?

 

[Questioner]

I recommend Metal against WoC. My VC beat them every time with it!

 

[Clockwork]

I've found metal not that effective with lizards. Sure, you can do a bit of damage. But you don't have anything to give you the edge in combat other than the +1 to hit, armour peircing spell (the scaly skin not working on saurus warriors) - and that doesn't even help you survive all the attacks coming at you first.

Might be different vs GW warriors though.

 

[Viarca]

It sounds like Pandaemonium is giving your Slann trouble. Remember RiP spells can be dispelled at any point in the magic phase now. While I definitely like it better when people don't, dispelling it is usually the first thing top-tier opponents do in their magic phase (it's much more useful these daysnot for causing miscasts, but for messing with Skaven and Orcs and Goblins to get them to panic/break or to try and eat up your opponents power dice pool... cast with your last dice needing 3+ and pretty much forcing them to use 2-3 dice in their magic phase to get rid of it).

Salamanders worry me more than anything playing my WoC against Lizardmen. Lore of Light is also great, but try not to count on it too much by making sure your units are supported (or having big ones). Also, if your opponent is running lots of frenzied units, try and use it to your advantage. Ld8 will mean a lot of times they have to attempt a charge that is not favorable and can draw the unit out of position, giving you an advantage.

 

[ollie]

Everyone seems to agree about the salamanders, and i can see their potential. I had 2 of them in my army but due to some overshooting they just killed like 2 warriors. Will try them out differently next time. Might place them in the flanks to account for overshooting hits, since his army was so compact after deployment.

The real winner units in my army were the stegadons, they butchered every unit they came into contact with. I had one on each flank, festus + 12 warriors got destroyed in a single round. Too bad they were out of range of lifebloom and that the hellcannon finished off the last wounds they had after loosing a few each time they broke down an enemy unit.

My center with slann and TG was to weak by the time we clashed into melee, that was propably the main reason why i lost. And the blitzkrieg tactic with stegs on flanks was a bit too risky aswell.

Ancients will give warriors without shields no armor save, same as sallies but the S6 vs S3 really shows.

Thats so true, since his list is so warrior heavy i was reliant to get nice rolls on salamander shots. 3 of 4 shots didn't kill anything, lots of overshooting though and the few hits rolled badly.

I do not know if the lore special attribute would help you (it works against chaos, but I am not sure about WoC).

Sounds like it is worth a shot! Altough i will feel naked without throne of vines. The magic missiles in lore of light is so awesome against the hellcannon though, tried it out once before and then i almost killed it in one phase. I will try out Life for a few games just to see if it works before i try out light again.

Slann with life in Temple Guard with razor standard. Throne of Vines + Earthblood should see them through. Add Flesh to Stone if necessary. The -3 from halbers and razor standard will rip through chaos armour.

This was exactly what my tactic was supposed to be like, but i only got earthblood off once while flesh to stone zero times. Gotta love that slann bunker, just hoped it would perform good in this single gaming session. I had like 9 TG left when i entered melee with scyla (rare monster infantry unit) and a couple of knights. My armor saves were good but earthblood didn't regenerate a single wound dispite 2 rounds of intense combat.

Stegadon war spear (ancient preferably, normal works just as well). I usually leave any marauders for saurus warriors to chew on, so my Stegadon can usually be found hitting chaos warriors (and getting its wounds back from regrowth), or knights in the flank (that have been held up by skrox).

I will definitely try to fit in the war spear on my ancient for the next game, and keep it in the center to be the hammer on my TG anvil

It sounds like Pandaemonium is giving your Slann trouble. Remember RiP spells can be dispelled at any point in the magic phase now. While I definitely like it better when people don't, dispelling it is usually the first thing top-tier opponents do in their magic phase

Yes that is a nasty spell, we really argued about that. I didn't know it was in effect and we had no markers or anything except for his good memory, otherwise a fast dispel is a good way to go. This was the first game that he used heavy magic, and chaos magic and items are making me sick already.

 

[KroxigorsFTW]

Engine of the Gods.

This baby helped me so much when I used to play WoC, I ran it up the center using Burning Alignment, it is really brutal against WoC 2D6 hits that kill WoC on a 4+? Hell yeah!
Sure the Hellcannon may get you, but, well, it may get your Steg too.

 

[erians]

Engine of the Gods.

This baby helped me so much when I used to play WoC, I ran it up the center using Burning Alignment, it is really brutal against WoC 2D6 hits that kill WoC on a 4+? Hell yeah!
Sure the Hellcannon may get you, but, well, it may get your Steg too.

The engine has a range of 2D6" but only does 1D6 hits, so it kills an avarage of 1.75 chaos warriors. Not bad by any means, but hardly devastating, and as you mentioned the Hellcannon can easily pick of the engine and the priest in 1 shot. A salamander shot will do way more damage if you get a good hit, with no shields it can easily take out 4-5 warriors per direct hit.

 

[Juhaaha]

Change lore. If your slann is in TG, then light, if he isnt, try shadows.

Only thing in WoC army I am afraid of is Chosen bunker.

The Lore of Tzeench gots some pretty awesome spells (Infernal GetAway, Pandemonium, the one that makes unit hit itself).

 

[ollie]

I tried light this past game against my regular opponent. But as usual my TG always gets blown to pieces/softened up before combat. I'm beginning to think that WoC has the best magic in the game, their own lores are great and their counter-magic items are top notch.



Against lvl 4 sorcerer lord, lvl 2 festus and lvl 1 sorcerer having any magic is a liability. Slann is shit against that, any miscast or failure of cast will result in annihilation. An 800 point bunker of slann+TG is easy for him to crush in no time. I was pretty lucky so my slann survived combat and won due to miscast hits on his troops after my TG was gone. I had backup by my wood elf ally with a lvl 4 wizard so it was not all of his wizard against my slann.

How my TG got owned:

I failed the first spell in my magic phase, and then he used an item that forced me to treat it as a miscast. After miscast had been rolled, it was a pretty soft result. So he used another item that allowed him to modify my result by D3 or D6, can't remember. But it resulted in 14 dead temple guards. The rest was butchered in 2 rounds of combat by his chaos knights.

I thought i had a hard time when he didn't use this much magic, but sorcerer lord in this sense is pure counter-magic and i have no idea how to face this. Although throne of vines would help a bit next time, and i usually run with cupped hands. Couldn't afford it this time.

Do you think an oldblood on carnosaur would be better against this? Since slann can't get much spells of and is more likely to just kill his guards then to do any real contribution in terms of buffs/damage. What about blade of realities? His lord is leadership 8, a challange between these guys would be epic.

 

[troubled_joe]

A Carnosaur is easy pickings for a hellcannon or halberd warriors (who strike before it, will wound it on a 4+ and leave it with only a 6+ save). Even regular warriors would mince it before it can strike. A Chaos Lord would take it down in one round no problem. A Chaos Lord is Ld 9, not 8, and can be equipped with a 3+ ward save. I imagine it would go something like this:
Chaos Lord strikes first and either kills the Carnosaur or takes off most of its wounds.
Oldblood retaliates and gets a couple of hits, which do nothing.
Carnosaur attacks with its 4 attacks hitting on a 5+, which does nothing.
Chaos Lord runs down and destroys the fleeing Oldblood.

Chaos Lords are 65 points more than an Oldblood, + an extra 50 points of gift options, and it shows.

 

[Clockwork]

... Really? If the Carnosaur does survive (if), then mathematically speaking with 4 attaks on a 5+ he's landing 1-2 hits and almost guarunteed to wound, beating the chaos lord armour save or reducing it to 6+. Make sure that your Oldblood has the Trickster's shard, and he's rerolling that nice ward save and might take 1-3 wounds. The Oldblood, who has a great weapon, then does the same but with more attacks and a better chance to hit.

This is, in fact, how I've killed High Elves Prince on Dragons. Other than dealing with a better ward save (3+ instead of 4+), I don't see how it'd work so much worse against Chaos Lords on foot.

 

[troubled_joe]

Good point, using the Tricksters Shard can make victory more feasible. I admit I forgot about it as I rarely use it myself, but I might start making more use of it. I wouldn't count on that Carnosaur surviving, though.
Oh how I hate High Elf Princes on Star Dragons!

 

[Ejpok]

Hi,
Well, I'm rather new to Lizardmen and WHFB, so don't look to much in my advices
First of all, cham skinks will do short work of the Hell cannon, besides If you have EotG than you can take the siganture spell, make all war machines fire on 4+. And the spell that makes Your opponent reroll 6's is pretty awesome.
As for the carni, He can kill the lord in one hit And it's not that easy to deal 5 T5 Wounds in one round i think.
Personally I usually give my OB a GW because he has I4 so he will strike last but wound on a 2+ and with Bane Head it's pretty easy to kill a lord.
Cheers,
SS

 

[KillerK]

May be show us your list, and the one that your usually going up against.

from what I read, you are using you salamanders, they should always be on a flank away from any charge arc's, and when shooting should be 6" form target, this will ensure you maximum effectiveness.

it's hard to give advice with so little information concerning your games.

maybe if you could write up a battle report of your last encounter, or get a game against him, and take a few pictures, this will give us incredible tactical info, because I believe that this is the main problem,and maybe your army might need a few tweek's.

 

[ollie]

Chameleon skinks are not likely to make worth their points i think, the hellcannon will most likely survive and just kill them in a round of combat.

maybe if you could write up a battle report of your last encounter, or get a game against him, and take a few pictures, this will give us incredible tactical info, because I believe that this is the main problem,and maybe your army might need a few tweek's.

Good point, i should be a little more precise. I will arrange a new game for me and my WoC mate and then take pictures and write a report.

 

[peacemaker1987]

Couldn't you use dwellers on the cannon, i thought warmachines always failed strength tests?
And a carni does D3 wounds, so you only need to get one to slip through the net and you may have a good chance on him.